Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

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Father
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by Father »

Father wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2024 3:10 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:36 pm
Father wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:24 pm
Father wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:19 am
Father wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:14 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:00 am
Father wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 10:23 pm
Father wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:28 am
Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:56 am
I wondered if people could recently beat the knight odd bot in blitz and the result is that people could do it.

I found that gelyaromanova lost 216-1 with 4 draws against LeelaKnightOdds

lost 20-0 at 1+0
lost 29-0 at 2+0
and finally lost 167-1 with 4 draws at 3+2


Good morning Uri, I hope you are well and continue to be well.
Uri. LeelaKnightOdds is like a wild horse; You ride him and he throws you on the ground again and again, then you get to know him, you make the horse ride, trot and run, finally you tame him, and he eats from your hand.
... how strange ... I have seen that the number of matches of the best players against LeelaQueenOdds has decreased? Also in bullet controls there are fewer Masters... what reason could there be for the lack of enthusiasm? I also note that the Top 100 position table has not been updated... how sad all this is...
I think that some interested has shifted back from queen odds to knight odds and rook odds. My guess is that many 2800+ bullet players have given up; their goal was probably to make a plus score at 1'0" at queen odds, but no one can do it so far, maybe Magnus or Hikaru might have a chance, but as far as we know they haven't tried. But it remains a good way to practice/improve bullet skills, so I expect we'll still see a reasonable number of such players playing the bot from time to time.
...Well, what else can be done? Surely the saying applies here: "many are called but few are chosen." Here we will surely remain firm, an important group. Personally, I prefer LeelaQueenOdds for bullet and blitz tests, it is more emblematic, playing against an opponent who gives us the queen before the match begins, it is a perfect algorithm. I consider that bullet 1-0 and with a 1 second increment is the perfect scenario to show what material one is built of and the top players could, in 1 minute plus 1 second, test the strength publicly, which makes it more exciting. Refuse to fight will never be a good option. I aspire and would like to have the pleasure of observing the bullet fights of the GMs again.
In addition to all the time controls that are allowed, LeelaQueeOdds could provide us with the scenario where the strongest teach us through their examples and games how to beat the computer.


...I don't know who this warrior fighter of a thousand battles is, but what I do know is that whoever he is, be it a Federated player or a street fighter, he is a giant who makes chess, humans and bots great. Congratulations to "Brewmasterua from Uganda." "The Giant from Uganda."
I think "Uganda" is a joke or a smokescreen because the player has ratings typical of a top fifty GM whereas no one from Uganda has a FIDE rating higher than 2334. But anyway the results show that although no one seems able to compete with LeelaQueenOdds at 1'0", the top players can come out ahead at 1'1", but it probably takes at least a 2800 blitz or 3000 bullet rating to do so.
... A few weeks ago, I wrote that I like one-minute games against computers, because on the part of the computer, we are assured that the level of play of the machine will be superior to that of the human world champion facing us in a classic level of time control competition. Therefore, every one-minute game shows a super-level cybernetic rival. Now, when this super-cybernetic rival faces a strong one-minute human player, the human deploys all his chess knowledge, and therefore the game reveals great depth. When I watch LeelaQueenOdds start the game with her queen down, and also the machine playing a gambit sacrificing pawns, I see a super level of the machine, superior to my wildest manifestation of imagination. A single victory by the one-minute human is more than worth 99 previous defeats, it is of great value. I invite all players who like to play minute by minute, to give us the pleasure of watching them fight like fierce tigers, even if they lose. But also the invitation to face LeelaQueenOddos is epic in 1 minute levels with increment, 3-0 or with increment, and even in longer levels, since, in each time control the science will be the same, only the procedure and terms of application vary. This game that I put in the post, simply for me is epic.

I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10798
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by Uri Blass »

I see that the knight odd version does not learn from previous experience.

weak players can beat it after enough tries if they simply memorize games that they got a good position and blundered and improve in these games.

see the following game

https://lichess.org/hUsvF2Vc/black

It is not the first time that this player could get the opening 1.d4 e6 2.Bf4 d5 3.Nc3 Bd6 4.Qd2 Bxf4 5.Qxf4 Ne7 6.0-0-0 Qd6 7.Qg5 0-0 8.e4 f5 9.e5 Qd8 10.f4 Ng6 11.Qg3 Qh4 12.Qxh4 Nxh4
Maybe with different order of moves between moves 2 and 3.
See the following games(there may be also previous games and did not check)

https://lichess.org/thl6kQeC/black
https://lichess.org/pmwCLxUG/black
https://lichess.org/jPOq41Cl/black
https://lichess.org/rkCmSFGw/black
https://lichess.org/2FFui1uX/black
https://lichess.org/KJbMlVE2/black
https://lichess.org/PmhSOIKo/black
https://lichess.org/KTANMHyK/black
https://lichess.org/fLiz6F4p/black
lkaufman
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by lkaufman »

Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2024 6:24 pm I see that the knight odd version does not learn from previous experience.

weak players can beat it after enough tries if they simply memorize games that they got a good position and blundered and improve in these games.

see the following game

https://lichess.org/hUsvF2Vc/black

It is not the first time that this player could get the opening 1.d4 e6 2.Bf4 d5 3.Nc3 Bd6 4.Qd2 Bxf4 5.Qxf4 Ne7 6.0-0-0 Qd6 7.Qg5 0-0 8.e4 f5 9.e5 Qd8 10.f4 Ng6 11.Qg3 Qh4 12.Qxh4 Nxh4
Maybe with different order of moves between moves 2 and 3.
See the following games(there may be also previous games and did not check)

https://lichess.org/thl6kQeC/black
https://lichess.org/pmwCLxUG/black
https://lichess.org/jPOq41Cl/black
https://lichess.org/rkCmSFGw/black
https://lichess.org/2FFui1uX/black
https://lichess.org/KJbMlVE2/black
https://lichess.org/PmhSOIKo/black
https://lichess.org/KTANMHyK/black
https://lichess.org/fLiz6F4p/black
The bots are not "learning" bots; they get entirely new nets from time to time, and occasionally settings are changed, but other than that the only learning that occurs is by me; I can change book probabilities based on experience. In this particular case I already made changes that will significantly lower the probability of reaching the above move e5 position of the Jobava. We could also raise "temperature" which would lead to more variety in the opening when out of book, at the price of playing more dubious moves. Perhaps we should do that, as the bots (knight and rook odds) are almost unbeatable now by humans who play on LiChess (excluding cheaters) unless they do what you describe above.
Komodo rules!
Father
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by Father »

Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2024 6:24 pm I see that the knight odd version does not learn from previous experience.

weak players can beat it after enough tries if they simply memorize games that they got a good position and blundered and improve in these games.

see the following game

https://lichess.org/hUsvF2Vc/black

It is not the first time that this player could get the opening 1.d4 e6 2.Bf4 d5 3.Nc3 Bd6 4.Qd2 Bxf4 5.Qxf4 Ne7 6.0-0-0 Qd6 7.Qg5 0-0 8.e4 f5 9.e5 Qd8 10.f4 Ng6 11.Qg3 Qh4 12.Qxh4 Nxh4
Maybe with different order of moves between moves 2 and 3.
See the following games(there may be also previous games and did not check)

https://lichess.org/thl6kQeC/black
https://lichess.org/pmwCLxUG/black
https://lichess.org/jPOq41Cl/black
https://lichess.org/rkCmSFGw/black
https://lichess.org/2FFui1uX/black
https://lichess.org/KJbMlVE2/black
https://lichess.org/PmhSOIKo/black
https://lichess.org/KTANMHyK/black
https://lichess.org/fLiz6F4p/black
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Father
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by Father »

Father wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 6:13 pm
Uri de Blass wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2024 6:24 pm I see that the knight odd version does not learn from previous experience.

weak players can beat it after enough tries if they simply memorize games that they got a good position and blundered and improve in these games.

see the following game

https://lichess.org/hUsvF2Vc/black

It is not the first time that this player could get the opening 1.d4 e6 2.Bf4 d5 3.Nc3 Bd6 4.Qd2 Bxf4 5.Qxf4 Ne7 6.0-0-0 Qd6 7.Qg5 0-0 8.e4 f5 9.e5 Qd8 10.f4 Ng6 11.Qg3 Qh4 12.Qxh4 Nxh4
Maybe with different order of moves between moves 2 and 3.
See the following games(there may be also previous games and did not check)

https://lichess.org/thl6kQeC/black
https://lichess.org/pmwCLxUG/black
https://lichess.org/jPOq41Cl/black
https://lichess.org/rkCmSFGw/black
https://lichess.org/2FFui1uX/black
https://lichess.org/KJbMlVE2/black
https://lichess.org/PmhSOIKo/black
https://lichess.org/KTANMHyK/black
https://lichess.org/fLiz6F4p/black
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Father
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by Father »

Father wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 2:48 am
Father wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 6:13 pm
Uri de Blass wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2024 6:24 pm I see that the knight odd version does not learn from previous experience.

weak players can beat it after enough tries if they simply memorize games that they got a good position and blundered and improve in these games.

see the following game

https://lichess.org/hUsvF2Vc/black

It is not the first time that this player could get the opening 1.d4 e6 2.Bf4 d5 3.Nc3 Bd6 4.Qd2 Bxf4 5.Qxf4 Ne7 6.0-0-0 Qd6 7.Qg5 0-0 8.e4 f5 9.e5 Qd8 10.f4 Ng6 11.Qg3 Qh4 12.Qxh4 Nxh4
Maybe with different order of moves between moves 2 and 3.
See the following games(there may be also previous games and did not check)

https://lichess.org/thl6kQeC/black
https://lichess.org/pmwCLxUG/black
https://lichess.org/jPOq41Cl/black
https://lichess.org/rkCmSFGw/black
https://lichess.org/2FFui1uX/black
https://lichess.org/KJbMlVE2/black
https://lichess.org/PmhSOIKo/black
https://lichess.org/KTANMHyK/black
https://lichess.org/fLiz6F4p/black
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Father
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by Father »

lkaufman wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:00 am
Father wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 10:23 pm
Father wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:28 am
Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:56 am I wondered if people could recently beat the knight odd bot in blitz and the result is that people could do it.

I found that gelyaromanova lost 216-1 with 4 draws against LeelaKnightOdds

lost 20-0 at 1+0
lost 29-0 at 2+0
and finally lost 167-1 with 4 draws at 3+2


Good morning Uri, I hope you are well and continue to be well.
Uri. LeelaKnightOdds is like a wild horse; You ride him and he throws you on the ground again and again, then you get to know him, you make the horse ride, trot and run, finally you tame him, and he eats from your hand.
... how strange ... I have seen that the number of matches of the best players against LeelaQueenOdds has decreased? Also in bullet controls there are fewer Masters... what reason could there be for the lack of enthusiasm? I also note that the Top 100 position table has not been updated... how sad all this is...
I think that some interested has shifted back from queen odds to knight odds and rook odds. My guess is that many 2800+ bullet players have given up; their goal was probably to make a plus score at 1'0" at queen odds, but no one can do it so far, maybe Magnus or Hikaru might have a chance, but as far as we know they haven't tried. But it remains a good way to practice/improve bullet skills, so I expect we'll still see a reasonable number of such players playing the bot from time to time.
...life is like a chain of new experiences and knowledge
It seems here we have learned that LeelaQueenOdds has been stronger and more powerful than some elite players expected.
So they have preferred to step aside. But history has already been written and what is written is written. To achieve leadership or a good position in the table of the top 100 humans who face the robot, it is not enough to be an advanced player, it is also required to understand that we are facing a computer with all that this means.
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
lkaufman
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by lkaufman »

Father wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2024 6:26 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:00 am
Father wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 10:23 pm
Father wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:28 am
Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:56 am I wondered if people could recently beat the knight odd bot in blitz and the result is that people could do it.

I found that gelyaromanova lost 216-1 with 4 draws against LeelaKnightOdds

lost 20-0 at 1+0
lost 29-0 at 2+0
and finally lost 167-1 with 4 draws at 3+2


Good morning Uri, I hope you are well and continue to be well.
Uri. LeelaKnightOdds is like a wild horse; You ride him and he throws you on the ground again and again, then you get to know him, you make the horse ride, trot and run, finally you tame him, and he eats from your hand.
... how strange ... I have seen that the number of matches of the best players against LeelaQueenOdds has decreased? Also in bullet controls there are fewer Masters... what reason could there be for the lack of enthusiasm? I also note that the Top 100 position table has not been updated... how sad all this is...
I think that some interested has shifted back from queen odds to knight odds and rook odds. My guess is that many 2800+ bullet players have given up; their goal was probably to make a plus score at 1'0" at queen odds, but no one can do it so far, maybe Magnus or Hikaru might have a chance, but as far as we know they haven't tried. But it remains a good way to practice/improve bullet skills, so I expect we'll still see a reasonable number of such players playing the bot from time to time.
...life is like a chain of new experiences and knowledge
It seems here we have learned that LeelaQueenOdds has been stronger and more powerful than some elite players expected.
So they have preferred to step aside. But history has already been written and what is written is written. To achieve leadership or a good position in the table of the top 100 humans who face the robot, it is not enough to be an advanced player, it is also required to understand that we are facing a computer with all that this means.
I don't think that is necessary, although it works for you. It is sufficient to understand that the opponent is vastly stronger, and that we only need to simplify the position and avoid complications, although this is much easier said that done, especially at the smaller handicaps. Whether the opponent is a machine or some alien or super-human doesn't matter, it is the strength that matters. Top players know to simplify when winning, and they would dominate the top of the list if they played blitz rather than bullet queen odds. But it seems they like to challenge themselves.
Komodo rules!
Father
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by Father »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2024 6:18 pm
Father wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2024 6:26 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:00 am
Father wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 10:23 pm
Father wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:28 am
Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:56 am I wondered if people could recently beat the knight odd bot in blitz and the result is that people could do it.

I found that gelyaromanova lost 216-1 with 4 draws against LeelaKnightOdds

lost 20-0 at 1+0
lost 29-0 at 2+0
and finally lost 167-1 with 4 draws at 3+2


Good morning Uri, I hope you are well and continue to be well.
Uri. LeelaKnightOdds is like a wild horse; You ride him and he throws you on the ground again and again, then you get to know him, you make the horse ride, trot and run, finally you tame him, and he eats from your hand.
... how strange ... I have seen that the number of matches of the best players against LeelaQueenOdds has decreased? Also in bullet controls there are fewer Masters... what reason could there be for the lack of enthusiasm? I also note that the Top 100 position table has not been updated... how sad all this is...
I think that some interested has shifted back from queen odds to knight odds and rook odds. My guess is that many 2800+ bullet players have given up; their goal was probably to make a plus score at 1'0" at queen odds, but no one can do it so far, maybe Magnus or Hikaru might have a chance, but as far as we know they haven't tried. But it remains a good way to practice/improve bullet skills, so I expect we'll still see a reasonable number of such players playing the bot from time to time.
...life is like a chain of new experiences and knowledge
It seems here we have learned that LeelaQueenOdds has been stronger and more powerful than some elite players expected.
So they have preferred to step aside. But history has already been written and what is written is written. To achieve leadership or a good position in the table of the top 100 humans who face the robot, it is not enough to be an advanced player, it is also required to understand that we are facing a computer with all that this means.
I don't think that is necessary, although it works for you. It is sufficient to understand that the opponent is vastly stronger, and that we only need to simplify the position and avoid complications, although this is much easier said that done, especially at the smaller handicaps. Whether the opponent is a machine or some alien or super-human doesn't matter, it is the strength that matters. Top players know to simplify when winning, and they would dominate the top of the list if they played blitz rather than bullet queen odds. But it seems they like to challenge themselves.


...there are two expressions in my native language that denote hope; one expresses like this: "The last thing that is lost is hope; The other: "My soul fell into my body." Seeing this game against LeelaQueenOdds I can see that the Grand Masters have not left and they can return. "In time good."
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Father
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: Amazing results of LeelaKnightOdds-Dev

Post by Father »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2024 6:18 pm
Father wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2024 6:26 am
lkaufman wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:00 am
Father wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 10:23 pm
Father wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:28 am
Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:56 am I wondered if people could recently beat the knight odd bot in blitz and the result is that people could do it.

I found that gelyaromanova lost 216-1 with 4 draws against LeelaKnightOdds

lost 20-0 at 1+0
lost 29-0 at 2+0
and finally lost 167-1 with 4 draws at 3+2


Good morning Uri, I hope you are well and continue to be well.
Uri. LeelaKnightOdds is like a wild horse; You ride him and he throws you on the ground again and again, then you get to know him, you make the horse ride, trot and run, finally you tame him, and he eats from your hand.
... how strange ... I have seen that the number of matches of the best players against LeelaQueenOdds has decreased? Also in bullet controls there are fewer Masters... what reason could there be for the lack of enthusiasm? I also note that the Top 100 position table has not been updated... how sad all this is...
I think that some interested has shifted back from queen odds to knight odds and rook odds. My guess is that many 2800+ bullet players have given up; their goal was probably to make a plus score at 1'0" at queen odds, but no one can do it so far, maybe Magnus or Hikaru might have a chance, but as far as we know they haven't tried. But it remains a good way to practice/improve bullet skills, so I expect we'll still see a reasonable number of such players playing the bot from time to time.
...life is like a chain of new experiences and knowledge
It seems here we have learned that LeelaQueenOdds has been stronger and more powerful than some elite players expected.
So they have preferred to step aside. But history has already been written and what is written is written. To achieve leadership or a good position in the table of the top 100 humans who face the robot, it is not enough to be an advanced player, it is also required to understand that we are facing a computer with all that this means.
I don't think that is necessary, although it works for you. It is sufficient to understand that the opponent is vastly stronger, and that we only need to simplify the position and avoid complications, although this is much easier said that done, especially at the smaller handicaps. Whether the opponent is a machine or some alien or super-human doesn't matter, it is the strength that matters. Top players know to simplify when winning, and they would dominate the top of the list if they played blitz rather than bullet queen odds. But it seems they like to challenge themselves.
Good evening Mr. Larey Kaufman and Mr. Marcogio9.
I hope you are well and continue well.
I wish you a very good year 2025.
I would like to ask something...
Since the last elo calculation of the top 100 of Leelaqueenodds, I have played driving the black chips, the modest amount of 1269 fights; I have been getting an idea of ​​the
reach the program, knowing little about
little their actions and reactions. I have been improving the percentage of points step by step, I usually play 100 games a day, although sometimes they are more or less. Today, for example, I have played 4 games and my performance is 50% tied, I have played 4 games, I have lost 2 and tied 2. But I usually stabilize at more or less 16%. I think I can improve, my human strategic memory is improving... I am worried about a series of encounters between players that "crush Leela" but the way of playing seems very implausible and could distort the table... I am also worried about the absence of GM and strong players, I don't know if they have become frustrated. It's good that the bulls returned to the bullring to compete...
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.