The near future of computer chess

[lkaufman]

If IvanHoe is by different people, don't we need a clear statement from the Ippo authors that IvanHoe represents them, as opposed to Houdini for example? Perhaps I have missed this, was there ever a public statement on the Ippo website that they accept Ivanhoe as the official final Ippo and not Houdini? If so then the case for rating Ivanhoe would be stronger.

Larry-
I hope I can clarify, but quite frankly, i'm tiring of relaying this info:

There is only 1 IvanHoe...
the authors have just released a new version: 999946
the Linux tarball is available for download here:
www.ippolit.wikispaces.com

several people are compiling this native Linux code for Windows...
using both Microsoft VC ++ and Intel compilers.

these people include:
KLO (King Liveson)
www.open-chess.org
He generally releases only compiles of the original code from ippolit.wikispaces.com and operates an excellent FTP/http download site:
http://chess.cygnitec.com/engine/ivanhoe/

PeterPan and others
at the notorious Russian 'Immortal' chess website
have released many many dozens (hundreds? of compile/versions?)
please note:
these individuals generally only 'compile' the code released at ippolit.wikispace.com by the 'Decembrists'...
sometime they adjusting piece values...

my involvement has been from the very beginning (summer 2009)...not as compiler but as 'collaborating' Windows developer
the history of which is well documented:
www.chesslogik.com and immortalchess.net

when ippolit was 1st released (summer 2009), it was completely unusable on windows, (as well as unstable on Linux), and the code was written in a sort Italian/Albanian dialect
myself (with help from Sentinel), developed and released more than a dozen public betas for testing on Immortal, end of 2009
the final release was RoboLito 0.09 which remains today near the top of all lists, especially single CPU...

It is this version that corresponds exactly with Houdini 1.0

IvanHoe is the recent name/version of Ippolit/Robbolito/Iggorit chronology of ippolit.wikispaces.com releases...

the authors are (still):
Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin, Igor Igorovich Igoronov, Roberto Pescatore, Yusuf Ralf Weisskopf, Ivan Skavinsky Skavar plus Decembrists (all)

the authors (especially Roberto Pescatore) frequently answer questions and converse on the ippolit website

Thanks for the information. I still have a couple of questions about it.
1. Did the Ippolit authors ask you to continue development, or was it your own idea?
2. If it was your own idea, did the authors ever state clearly on their website that you were authorized by them to take over the development?
3. How does "Fire" fit into the picture? Is there some basis for saying that the authors of Ippolit have stated that Ivanhoe rather than Fire is to be considered the official Ippolit now?

What I'm trying to clarify is whether there is a clear statement from the Ippolit authors that Ivanhoe rather than Fire or Houdini or anything else is the "true" Ippolit, or whether this is the claim just of the developer of Ivanhoe itself (i.e. you)? None of this is a criticism of you, I'm just trying to establish whether the actual authors have made clear whom they want to represent them.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

On an unrelated note, If you are opposed to Capitalism why would you want engine authors to be paid for their sales to testers? You should oppose anyone paying for copies to be consistent! Also, haven't you tried to sell software yourself in the past? Of course I see nothing wrong with that, but it seems inconsistent with your claim to opposing Capitalism.

[lkaufman]

[quote="kraniumThere are dozens of anonymous 'Decembrists' developing IvanHoe, they log-in and post regularly on ippolit.wikispaces.com
that's one reason the engine is developing so quickly...

Standing up and speaking out for what you believe in, or against what you perceive as an injustice, is hardly 'bullying'
...sorry you see it that way[/quote]

From what I read on the net, the Decembrist revolution was about issues specific to Czarist Russia, and hence of no relevance to anyone living today. What on earth does it mean to be a "Decembrist" today? Is it another name for Communist, or something else entirely?

Sorry for my ignorance on the matter.

[Laskos]

From what I read on the net, the Decembrist revolution was about issues specific to Czarist Russia, and hence of no relevance to anyone living today. What on earth does it mean to be a "Decembrist" today? Is it another name for Communist, or something else entirely?

Sorry for my ignorance on the matter.

The Decembrist revolution of 1825 was a revolution of Imperial Russian officers which traveled a lot through Europe, especially France, during and after Napoleonic wars, and spread the liberal by Czarist Russia standards views of a constitutional monarchy, elected parliament, equal and voting rights for bourgeois, liberation of the serfs, etc. These views were learnt in occupied France, a country which for decades after the French Revolution was the dream of many liberals, and the views spread among Russian officers of 1815-1825, when the revolution broke and was suppressed.

Kai

[lkaufman]

That's pretty much what I read on the net, but what does it mean if someone TODAY says he is a "Decembrist"? What would he be in favor of or against that is relevant now?

[mjlef]

3. You should take a look at youtube. You find everything. The music and movie industry are helpless. They have given up on youtube long time ago defeated by volume. These are the days of internet, it has come with new realities.

You sound like it is OK to steal things. It is not. You can request copywritten material be removed from youtube, and they will do it immediately. Copyright holders often persecute these thefts and often win large settlements.

Theft is wrong. You claim to be religious. Exodus 20:1-17 "Thou shall not steal". There is no "new reality". You are just turning a blind eye.

[Laskos]

That's pretty much what I read on the net, but what does it mean if someone TODAY says he is a "Decembrist"? What would he be in favor of or against that is relevant now?

In the context of those funny Ippo guys, I don't know. Out of establishment, free for all, communist, you guess.

[lkaufman]

I guess my question is, are there any significant number of people now living, not involved in computer chess, who claim to be "Decembrists", and if so, what do they favor or oppose? I would think that at least someone connected with the Ippos should know the answer to this.

[Laskos]

I guess my question is, are there any significant number of people now living, not involved in computer chess, who claim to be "Decembrists", and if so, what do they favor or oppose? I would think that at least someone connected with the Ippos should know the answer to this.

I am not connected to the Ippos, and it would be strange to have a social "Decembrist" movement today, I don't know of such a thing. I guess one needs to replace an autocracy by a constitutional monarchy, do you know a country in such a need?

I was just saying that IvanHoe got a very unfair treatment from the community.

Kai

[stegemma]

...
#. Enters the program in tournaments that are reserved for original programs.
...

Somehow this has been done, but i should admit that all a the Vitruvius team has been honest on that. They had want to play in the italian IOCSC championship. We leave them to play out of the final standing (fuori classifica) and that was a way to personally know the team and talk about some possible solution. In fact, the tournament was intended for original works only, since the first CIPS in 2001 in Pisa. The other points cannot apply, they never said that those was an original work. But, there's a "but". They talk about their derivated work as it is their own work in whole. In their forum they said that they are to go to IOCSC to win, that we were frightened because of their strength and so on... that's not good at all. If you just derive from a strong program, you should "flight low" and not be so "supponent" (maybe this is not the right word in english, "supponente" or "presuntuoso" in italian).

Finally, for those who are afraid by age: nobody in Vitruvius team seems to be 20...... they are IT professional, maybe in other IT fields, before to work on chess programming.

[kranium]

Thanks for the information. I still have a couple of questions about it.
1. Did the Ippolit authors ask you to continue development, or was it your own idea?
2. If it was your own idea, did the authors ever state clearly on their website that you were authorized by them to take over the development?
3. How does "Fire" fit into the picture? Is there some basis for saying that the authors of Ippolit have stated that Ivanhoe rather than Fire is to be considered the official Ippolit now?

What I'm trying to clarify is whether there is a clear statement from the Ippolit authors that Ivanhoe rather than Fire or Houdini or anything else is the "true" Ippolit, or whether this is the claim just of the developer of Ivanhoe itself (i.e. you)? None of this is a criticism of you, I'm just trying to establish whether the actual authors have made clear whom they want to represent them.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

On an unrelated note, If you are opposed to Capitalism why would you want engine authors to be paid for their sales to testers? You should oppose anyone paying for copies to be consistent! Also, haven't you tried to sell software yourself in the past? Of course I see nothing wrong with that, but it seems inconsistent with your claim to opposing Capitalism.

Hi Larry-

i immediately started developing it....without being asked. I felt strongly early on that it was unique and legitimate.
here's my original post 'why' i believed this...which has resided on chesslogik.com for more than 2 years now:
http://www.chesslogik.com/rybka3.htm

within a short time we had a group of several hundred testers (Decembrists) on Immortal who were eager to help...testing/etc.
i maintained a complete list here:
http://www.chesslogik.com/robbolito.htm

all development was released on immortal forum as public betas, with near immediate and direct feedback, thus development proceeded rapidly.
the robbolito page above also includes detailed release history

our Windows releases quickly became very different/bug-free, and much stronger then the original engine
at that point i decide to give it a new name: Firebird...
this was in honor of the software's Russian roots as the Firebird is an extremely important figure in Russian mythology, and Stravinsky (one of my favorite composers)

i soon received a registered letter from the 'Firebird foundation' (database software) that "Firebird" was owned by them as a registered trademark, and that I must decease and desist distributing software with that name, hence.. "Firebird" became "Fire"

the 'official' version should definately be IvanHoe...
my criticism of CCRL, etc. has always been that have arbitrarily and hypocritically blacklisted 'IvanHoe'...

If you are opposed to Capitalism why would you want engine authors to be paid for their sales to testers?

i don't want "engine authors to be paid for their sales to testers"...i never stated that
Graham had posted:
"We test chess engines for our own enjoyment and receive no payment for doing so."

my post was to illustrate that he did in fact receive 'compensation' for his time and efforts
my point being that this might/would bias (and ultimately has biased) his selection of engines to test
(i.e. after Vas publicly claimed ippolit was a clone Rybka3, the CCC anti-Ippoit 'fever' and rhetoric reached a new high...)

Also, haven't you tried to sell software yourself in the past? Of course I see nothing wrong with that, but it seems inconsistent with your claim to opposing Capitalism.

i am human and live in the capitalist West...(albeit a 'socialist' democracy)...i am American, and have lived here in large part expressly for that reason, for 20 years now
but as you well know, receiving financial support is critical to successful long term development...
i do not complain, but for ex: i still use a 6 year old 32 bit XP system...
when i attempted to 'sell', it was clearly stated that all funds procured would be used solely to further future development