TCEC season 28 superfinal

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Jouni
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TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by Jouni »

Now Lc0 plays with GPU: 8x NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5090 32607MB! Seems not to help, when Stockfish has about 60% score after 35 games. BTW Lc0 lost game 26 by time. It used 9.548ns too much time :P .
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Werewolf
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Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 pm

Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by Werewolf »

Which network is Lc0 using? BT4?
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mehmet123
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Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by mehmet123 »

Werewolf wrote: ↑Mon Sep 01, 2025 9:14 am Which network is Lc0 using? BT4?
Lc0 using BT4-6147500 network.

Stefan tested this network at 2024 March. 1.5 years ago.
viewtopic.php?t=83418

If a stronger network hasn’t been produced in 1.5 years, it means the situation is very bad for Lc0.
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Jouni
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Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by Jouni »

Even with super hardware and 7 piece tablebases Lc0 it don't understand endgames.
[d]8/1KP3pk/2Q4p/7P/1q6/8/8/8 w - - 3 107
Here Lc0 evaluates 0.69 for white :o .
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gordonr
Posts: 237
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Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by gordonr »

Jouni wrote: ↑Mon Sep 01, 2025 2:18 pm Even with super hardware and 7 piece tablebases Lc0 it don't understand endgames.
[d]8/1KP3pk/2Q4p/7P/1q6/8/8/8 w - - 3 107
Here Lc0 evaluates 0.69 for white :o .
Lc0 v0.32.0-rc1
BT4-6147500 network
3070 ti graphics card

info depth 15 seldepth 37 time 35886 nodes 1449528 score cp 228 wdl 881 113 6 nps 40454 tbhits 7219 multipv 1 pv b7a6

So quickly finding Ka6 with 2.28 eval and climbing
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Dann Corbit
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Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by Dann Corbit »

lc0, 0.32.0 with BT4-1024x15x32h-swa-6147500.pb.gz running on a pair of 2080 Super cards.
It picks Ka6 at 33 seconds and holds it for an hour.

Code: Select all

    14/35	00:33	        907k	27k	+2.35	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qc3  Qd6  Qc4  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qh1+
    14/35	00:33	        907k	27k	+2.30	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Qb5  Qe3+  Ka6  Qe6+  Ka7  Qe3+  Qb6  Qe7  Qb1+  Kh8  Kb7  Qf7  Qd1  Kh7  Qc2+  Kh8  Qd3  Kg8  Qe4  Kh8  Kb8  Qb3+  Qb7
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    15/39	00:52	      1,628k	31k	+2.33	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qb3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qc1  Qd8+  Kh7
    15/39	00:52	      1,628k	31k	+2.31	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Qb5  Qe3+  Ka6  Qe6+  Ka7  Qe3+  Qb6  Qe7  Qb1+  Kh8  Kb7  Qf7  Qd3  Kg8  Qe4  Kh8  Kb8  Qb3+  Qb7  Qg3  Qa8  Kh7  Qe4+  Kh8  Qe8+  Kh7  Qg6+  Kg8  Qxg3  Kf7
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    16/41	01:16	      2,546k	33k	+2.34	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qc3  Qd6  Qc4  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qc1  Qd8+  Kh7
    16/41	01:16	      2,546k	33k	+2.32	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Qb5  Qe3+  Ka6  Qe6+  Ka7  Qe3+  Qb6  Qe7  Qb1+  Kh8  Kb7  Qf7  Qd3  Kg8  Qe4  Kh8  Kb8  Qb3+  Qb7  Qg3  Qa8  Kh7  Qe4+  Kh8  Qe8+  Kh7  Qg6+  Kg8  Qxg3  Kf7  c8Q  Kf6  Qd6+
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    17/43	01:37	      3,314k	34k	+2.33	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qc3  Qd6  Qc4  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qc1  Qd8+  Kh7
    17/43	01:37	      3,314k	34k	+2.33	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Qb5  Qe3+  Ka6  Qa3+  Kb7  Qf3+  Qc6  Qb3+  Qb6  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb3+  Ka7  Qf7+  Qb7  Qf2+  Qdb6  Qa2+  Kb8  Qg8+  Qc8  Kh8  Qbd8  Qf8
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    18/46	02:24	      5,463k	38k	+2.33	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qc5  Kh8  Qa5  Kh7  Qa8  Qb4+  Qb7  Qf4  Qb3  Kh8  Qc3  Qd6  Ka7  Qe7  Kb8  Qd6
    18/46	02:24	      5,463k	38k	+2.33	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Qb5  Qe3+  Ka6  Qe6+  Ka5  Qa2+  Qa4  Qd5+  Kb6  Qe6+  Kb7  Qd5+  Qc6  Qb3+  Qb6  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb3+  Ka7  Qf7+  Qb7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2+  Qdc7  Qxc7+
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    19/47	03:37	      9,518k	44k	+2.31	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qc5  Kh8  Qa5  Kh7  Qa8  Qb4+  Qb7  Qf4  Qb3  Kh8  Qc3  Qd6  Ka7  Qe7  Kb8  Qd6
    19/47	03:37	      9,518k	44k	+2.33	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Qb5  Qe3+  Ka6  Qe6+  Ka5  Qa2+  Qa4  Qd5+  Kb6  Qe6+  Kb7  Qd5+  Qc6  Qb3+  Qb6  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb3+  Ka6  Qa3+  Qa5  Qd6+  Ka7  Qd4+  Qcc5  Qd7+  Qac7  Qa4+
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    20/49	04:31	     12,861k	47k	+2.31	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qc5  Kh8  Qa5  Kh7  Qa8  Qb4+  Qb7  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qb3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qf5
    20/49	04:31	     12,861k	47k	+2.37	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Qb5  Qe3+  Ka6  Qe6+  Ka5  Qa2+  Qa4  Qd5+  Kb6  Qe6+  Kb7  Qd5+  Qc6  Qb3+  Qb6  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb2+  Ka7  Qa3+  Qa6  Qe3+  Qab6  Qa3+  Kb8  Qg3+  Qdc7  Qd3  Qe5  Qc2  Qb7  Qc8+
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    21/50	05:43	     17,019k	50k	+2.31	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qc5  Kh8  Qa5  Kh7  Qa8  Qb4+  Qb7  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qb3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qf5
    21/50	05:43	     17,019k	50k	+2.34	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Qb5  Qe3+  Ka6  Qe6+  Ka5  Qa2+  Qa4  Qd5+  Kb6  Qe6+  Kb7  Qd5+  Qc6  Qb3+  Qb6  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb2+  Ka7  Qa2+  Qa6  Qf7+  Kb8  Qb3+  Qdb6  Qg8+  Qc8  Kh8  Qbd8  Qxd8
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    22/50	07:44	     24,178k	52k	+2.31	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qc5  Kh8  Qa5  Kh7  Qa8  Qb4+  Qb7  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qb3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qf5
    22/50	07:44	     24,178k	52k	+2.63	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Ka7  Qa3+  Qa6  Qe3+  Qb6  Qe7  Qb1+  Kg8  Qb3+  Kh8  Kb6  Qd7  Kb7  Kh7  Qc2+  Kh8  Qc4  Qe7  Qa4  Kg8  Qg4  Qf7  Kc6  Qf6+  Kd5  Kh7  Qe4+  Kh8  c8R+  Qd8+  Rxd8+
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    23/50	09:31	     32,872k	58k	+2.31	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qc5  Kh8  Qa5  Kh7  Qa8  Qb4+  Qb7  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qb3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qf5
    23/50	09:31	     32,872k	58k	+2.64	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Ka7  Qa3+  Qa6  Qe3+  Qb6  Qe7  Qb1+  Kg8  Qb3+  Kh8  Kb6  Qd7  Kb7  Kh7  Qc2+  Kh8  Qc4  Qe7  Qa4  Kg8  Qg4  Kf8  Qd4  Kf7  Kb8  Qe8+  c8Q  Qb5+  Qb7+  Ke6
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    24/51	11:40	     42,615k	61k	+2.31	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qc5  Kh8  Qa5  Kh7  Qa8  Qb4+  Qb7  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qb3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qf5
    24/51	11:40	     42,615k	61k	+2.79	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Ka7  Qa3+  Qa6  Qe3+  Qb6  Qe7  Qb1+  Kg8  Qb3+  Kh8  Kb6  Qd7  Kb7  Kh7  Qc2+  Kh8  Qc4  Qe7  Qa4  Kg8  Qg4  Kf8  Qd4  Kf7  Kb8  Qe8+  c8Q  Qb5+  Qb7+  Ke6  Qxb5  Kf7  Qbd7+  Kf8
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    25/52	15:05	     56,354k	62k	+2.31	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qc5  Kh8  Qa5  Kh7  Qa8  Qb4+  Qb7  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qb3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qf5
    25/52	15:05	     56,354k	62k	+2.94	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb3+  Ka7  Qa3+  Qa6  Qe3+  Qb6  Qe7  Qb1+  Kg8  Qb3+  Kh8  Kb6  Qd7  Kb7  Kh7  Qc2+  Kh8  Qc4  Qe7  Qa4  Kg8  Qg4  Kf8  Qd4  Kf7  Kb8  Qe8+  c8Q  Qb5+  Qb7+  Ke8  Qxb5+  Kf7  Qbd7+  Kg8  Q4xg7+
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    26/53	24:43	     86,182k	58k	+2.31	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qa3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qc1  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qc7+  Ka6
    26/53	24:43	     86,182k	58k	+3.19	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb2+  Qb5  Qd4+  Ka6  Qa1+  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qg1+  Qb6  Qa1+  Kb7  Qh1+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb3+  Ka6  Qa2+  Qa5  Qe2+  Qb5  Qa2+  Kb6  Qf2+  Qcc5  Qf6+  Qbc6  Qb2+  Kc7  Qh2+  Q5d6  Qxh5  Qe4+  Kg8  Qd8+  Kf7
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    27/55	36:55	    114,990k	52k	+2.30	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qa3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qc1  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qc7+  Ka6
    27/55	36:55	    114,990k	52k	+3.42	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb2+  Qb5  Qd4+  Ka6  Qf6+  Qb6  Qf1+  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb3+  Ka6  Qa2+  Qa5  Qe2+  Qb5  Qa2+  Kb6  Qf2+  Qcc5  Qf6+  Qbc6  Qb2+  Kc7  Qh2+  Q6d6  Kg8  Qxh2  Kf7
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    28/55	55:44	    149,919k	45k	+2.30	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qa3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qc1  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qc7+  Ka6  Qxd8
    28/55	55:44	    149,919k	45k	+3.68	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb2+  Qb5  Qd4+  Ka6  Qa1+  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qg1+  Qb6  Qa1+  Kb7  Qh1+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb2+  Ka7  Qa2+  Qa6  Qf2+  Kb8  Qb2+  Qdb6  Qe5+  Qd6  Qe8+  Kc7  Qf7+  Kd8  Qxh5  Qad3+  Kg8  Qe6+  Kf8  Qa3+  Qc5  Qxc5+
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    29/55	59:53	    156,679k	44k	+2.30	Qb6  Qe4+  Kb8  Qf4  Qb2  Kh8  Qa3  Qe5  Qb4  Kh7  Kb7  Qd5+  Ka7  Qa2+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qc1  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qc7+  Ka6  Qxd8
    29/55	59:53	    156,679k	44k	+3.72	Ka6  Qa3+  Kb6  Qb2+  Qb5  Qd4+  Ka6  Qa1+  Kb7  Qh1+  Ka7  Qg1+  Qb6  Qa1+  Kb7  Qh1+  Kb8  Qh2  Qd4  Kh8  Kb7  Qg2+  Kb6  Qc2  Qd8+  Kh7  c8Q  Qb2+  Ka7  Qa2+  Qa6  Qf2+  Kb8  Qb2+  Qdb6  Qe5+  Qd6  Qe8+  Kc7  Qf7+  Kd8  Qxh5  Qad3+  Kg8  Qe6+  Kf8  Qa3+  Qc5  Qxc5+
   9/1/2025 7:16:58 AM, Time for this analysis: 01:00:00, Rated time: 1:00:00
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Werewolf
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Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 pm

Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by Werewolf »

mehmet123 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 01, 2025 2:02 pm
Werewolf wrote: ↑Mon Sep 01, 2025 9:14 am Which network is Lc0 using? BT4?
Lc0 using BT4-6147500 network.

Stefan tested this network at 2024 March. 1.5 years ago.
viewtopic.php?t=83418

If a stronger network hasn’t been produced in 1.5 years, it means the situation is very bad for Lc0.
Oh that is bad.
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schahmatist
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Full name: Ben Krik

Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by schahmatist »

I do not understand this. BT5 was doing well in Premier League. 50%-50% against Stockfish. Why on earth they decided to go with an old network when similar BT4 network at TCEC 27 have lost 40%-60%. And since TCEC 27 Stock gained probably 10 ELO. What were they hoping for and why not use BT5?
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Jouni
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Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by Jouni »

Analysis by Stockfish 17.1:
...
107.Ka6 Qa3+ 108.Kb6 Qb3+ 109.Ka7 Qa3+ 110.Qa6 Qe3+ 111.Qb6 Qe7 112.Qb1+ Kg8 113.Qb3+ Kh8 114.Kb6 Qd7 115.Kb7 Kh7 116.Qc2+ Kh8 117.Qc4 Qe7 118.Qa4 Kh7 119.Qg4 Qf7 120.Qg6+ Qxg6 121.hxg6+ Kxg6 122.c8Q Kg5 123.Qf8 h5 124.Kc6 Kg4 125.Kd5 Kg5 126.Qf3 h4 127.Ke6 g6 128.Ke5 Kh6 129.Kf6 Kh7 130.Qb7+ Kh6 131.Qg7+ Kh5 132.Qxg6#
+- (#26) Depth: 77/52 00:01:03 426mN, tb=23450435
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Jouni
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Re: TCEC season 28 superfinal

Post by Jouni »

Result Stockfish 57.5 - Lc0 42.5. Last season was 58.5 - 41.5. Now hardware was 4-5x faster, but engines hardly stronger.
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