karjakin most certainly missed a win in game 5

[S.Taylor]

Just look at chessbomb on move 40. That which chessbomb was reccomending, namely 40....Qh6, seems to be the truth! And it would have put Karjakin in the drivers seat, and i think he might have won.

The commentators have still not seen it either.

But I'm sure it is going to be in very furious discussion in the coming hours! For a long time!!!

Obviously, Qh6 was not an easy move for a human to notice! But once noticed, it SHOULD have been easy enough for a 2700+ player!

[Vinvin]

Just look at chessbomb on move 40. That which chessbomb was reccomending, namely 40....Qh6, seems to be the truth! And it would have put Karjakin in the drivers seat, and i think he might have won.

The commentators have still not seen it either.

But I'm sure it is going to be in very furious discussion in the coming hours! For a long time!!!

Obviously, Qh6 was not an easy move for a human to notice! But once noticed, it SHOULD have been easy enough for a 2700+ player!

Chessbomb analyses is not very serious, it's only depth 23.
http://analysis.sesse.net/ reaches depth 40 on this position :

Score: -0.21
PV: 40. … Qh6 41. Qd4 Rg8 42. Rh2 Qg7 43. Kg2 Rf8 44. Rh1 Qg6 45. Rd1 Kb8 46. Rf1 Rh8 47. Rh1 Kc8 48. Bd2 Rf8 49. Be3 Rf7 50. Rd1 Rg7 51. Qd3 Qh6 52. Rh1 Kb8 53. Qd2 Rg8 54. Qd4 Qg6 55. Bd2 Qf7 56. Be3 Ka7 57. Rf1 Qh7 58. Rh1 Kb8 59. Bd2 Qg6 60. Be3 Rh8 61. Rc1
1,008,485,271 nodes, 27,171,905 nodes/sec, depth 40 ply (47 selective), 15,197 Syzygy hits

On this line : "Sound: On Off | Sort by: Move Score | (…) 48. Qxf4 Qe7 49. Rh5 Rf8 50. Rh7 Rxf4 51. Rxe7 | Make moves by clicking on them, or on an involved square." , click on '...' to have access to the whole history of moves.

[S.Taylor]

Just look at chessbomb on move 40. That which chessbomb was reccomending, namely 40....Qh6, seems to be the truth! And it would have put Karjakin in the drivers seat, and i think he might have won.

The commentators have still not seen it either.

But I'm sure it is going to be in very furious discussion in the coming hours! For a long time!!!

Obviously, Qh6 was not an easy move for a human to notice! But once noticed, it SHOULD have been easy enough for a 2700+ player!

Chessbomb analyses is not very serious, it's only depth 23.
http://analysis.sesse.net/ reaches depth 40 on this position :

Score: -0.21
PV: 40. … Qh6 41. Qd4 Rg8 42. Rh2 Qg7 43. Kg2 Rf8 44. Rh1 Qg6 45. Rd1 Kb8 46. Rf1 Rh8 47. Rh1 Kc8 48. Bd2 Rf8 49. Be3 Rf7 50. Rd1 Rg7 51. Qd3 Qh6 52. Rh1 Kb8 53. Qd2 Rg8 54. Qd4 Qg6 55. Bd2 Qf7 56. Be3 Ka7 57. Rf1 Qh7 58. Rh1 Kb8 59. Bd2 Qg6 60. Be3 Rh8 61. Rc1
1,008,485,271 nodes, 27,171,905 nodes/sec, depth 40 ply (47 selective), 15,197 Syzygy hits

On this line : "Sound: On Off | Sort by: Move Score | (…) 48. Qxf4 Qe7 49. Rh5 Rf8 50. Rh7 Rxf4 51. Rxe7 | Make moves by clicking on them, or on an involved square." , click on '...' to have access to the whole history of moves.

It is hard for me to follow all this as i have not the setup for it on my computer.

But what are you saying? AAre you saying that if karjakin would have played 40....Qh6, he would not have caused the greatest upset possible to Carlsen?

And what is the evaluation of Qh6 after 40-60 plies with stockfish?

We already know one thing, that all top GM's agree that if karjakin would have grabbed the h file around that point, with Rh8, he would have won the game. Even Magnus himself said so.

[Sean Evans]

Just look at chessbomb on move 40. That which chessbomb was reccomending, namely 40....Qh6, seems to be the truth! And it would have put Karjakin in the drivers seat, and i think he might have won.

The commentators have still not seen it either.

But I'm sure it is going to be in very furious discussion in the coming hours! For a long time!!!

Obviously, Qh6 was not an easy move for a human to notice! But once noticed, it SHOULD have been easy enough for a 2700+ player!

Hi, posting the game with [pgn] and your bots analysis would be helpful to the readers. Thanks [/pgn]

[S.Taylor]

Just look at chessbomb on move 40. That which chessbomb was reccomending, namely 40....Qh6, seems to be the truth! And it would have put Karjakin in the drivers seat, and i think he might have won.

The commentators have still not seen it either.

But I'm sure it is going to be in very furious discussion in the coming hours! For a long time!!!

Obviously, Qh6 was not an easy move for a human to notice! But once noticed, it SHOULD have been easy enough for a 2700+ player!

Hi, posting the game with [pgn] and your bots analysis would be helpful to the readers. Thanks [/pgn]

You are absolutely right. But I regret I am not equipped with these technical things.

[Vinvin]

Just look at chessbomb on move 40. That which chessbomb was reccomending, namely 40....Qh6, seems to be the truth! And it would have put Karjakin in the drivers seat, and i think he might have won.

The commentators have still not seen it either.

But I'm sure it is going to be in very furious discussion in the coming hours! For a long time!!!

Obviously, Qh6 was not an easy move for a human to notice! But once noticed, it SHOULD have been easy enough for a 2700+ player!

Chessbomb analyses is not very serious, it's only depth 23.
http://analysis.sesse.net/ reaches depth 40 on this position :

Score: -0.21
PV: 40. … Qh6 41. Qd4 Rg8 42. Rh2 Qg7 43. Kg2 Rf8 44. Rh1 Qg6 45. Rd1 Kb8 46. Rf1 Rh8 47. Rh1 Kc8 48. Bd2 Rf8 49. Be3 Rf7 50. Rd1 Rg7 51. Qd3 Qh6 52. Rh1 Kb8 53. Qd2 Rg8 54. Qd4 Qg6 55. Bd2 Qf7 56. Be3 Ka7 57. Rf1 Qh7 58. Rh1 Kb8 59. Bd2 Qg6 60. Be3 Rh8 61. Rc1
1,008,485,271 nodes, 27,171,905 nodes/sec, depth 40 ply (47 selective), 15,197 Syzygy hits

On this line : "Sound: On Off | Sort by: Move Score | (…) 48. Qxf4 Qe7 49. Rh5 Rf8 50. Rh7 Rxf4 51. Rxe7 | Make moves by clicking on them, or on an involved square." , click on '...' to have access to the whole history of moves.

It is hard for me to follow all this as i have not the setup for it on my computer.

But what are you saying? AAre you saying that if karjakin would have played 40....Qh6, he would not have caused the greatest upset possible to Carlsen?

And what is the evaluation of Qh6 after 40-60 plies with stockfish?

We already know one thing, that all top GM's agree that if karjakin would have grabbed the h file around that point, with Rh8, he would have won the game. Even Magnus himself said so.

I simply means a 40 plies deep analyze by SF gives only 0.21 advantage to black with the line

Code: Select all

 Score: -0.21
PV: 40. … Qh6 41. Qd4 Rg8 42. Rh2 Qg7 43. Kg2 Rf8 44. Rh1 Qg6 45. Rd1 Kb8 46. Rf1 Rh8 47. Rh1 Kc8 48. Bd2 Rf8 49. Be3 Rf7 50. Rd1 Rg7 51. Qd3 Qh6 52. Rh1 Kb8 53. Qd2 Rg8 54. Qd4 Qg6...

[AdminX]

Just look at chessbomb on move 40. That which chessbomb was reccomending, namely 40....Qh6, seems to be the truth! And it would have put Karjakin in the drivers seat, and i think he might have won.

The commentators have still not seen it either.

But I'm sure it is going to be in very furious discussion in the coming hours! For a long time!!!

Obviously, Qh6 was not an easy move for a human to notice! But once noticed, it SHOULD have been easy enough for a 2700+ player!

Chessbomb analyses is not very serious, it's only depth 23.
http://analysis.sesse.net/ reaches depth 40 on this position :

Score: -0.21
PV: 40. … Qh6 41. Qd4 Rg8 42. Rh2 Qg7 43. Kg2 Rf8 44. Rh1 Qg6 45. Rd1 Kb8 46. Rf1 Rh8 47. Rh1 Kc8 48. Bd2 Rf8 49. Be3 Rf7 50. Rd1 Rg7 51. Qd3 Qh6 52. Rh1 Kb8 53. Qd2 Rg8 54. Qd4 Qg6 55. Bd2 Qf7 56. Be3 Ka7 57. Rf1 Qh7 58. Rh1 Kb8 59. Bd2 Qg6 60. Be3 Rh8 61. Rc1
1,008,485,271 nodes, 27,171,905 nodes/sec, depth 40 ply (47 selective), 15,197 Syzygy hits

On this line : "Sound: On Off | Sort by: Move Score | (…) 48. Qxf4 Qe7 49. Rh5 Rf8 50. Rh7 Rxf4 51. Rxe7 | Make moves by clicking on them, or on an involved square." , click on '...' to have access to the whole history of moves.

It is hard for me to follow all this as i have not the setup for it on my computer.

But what are you saying? AAre you saying that if karjakin would have played 40....Qh6, he would not have caused the greatest upset possible to Carlsen?

And what is the evaluation of Qh6 after 40-60 plies with stockfish?

We already know one thing, that all top GM's agree that if karjakin would have grabbed the h file around that point, with Rh8, he would have won the game. Even Magnus himself said so.

I simply means a 40 plies deep analyze by SF gives only 0.21 advantage to black with the line

Code: Select all

 Score: -0.21
PV: 40. … Qh6 41. Qd4 Rg8 42. Rh2 Qg7 43. Kg2 Rf8 44. Rh1 Qg6 45. Rd1 Kb8 46. Rf1 Rh8 47. Rh1 Kc8 48. Bd2 Rf8 49. Be3 Rf7 50. Rd1 Rg7 51. Qd3 Qh6 52. Rh1 Kb8 53. Qd2 Rg8 54. Qd4 Qg6...

Code: Select all

 [pgn] [/pgn]

[pgn]
[Event "AGON FWCM 2016"]
[Site "New York"]
[Date "2016.11.18"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Carlsen, Magnus"]
[Black "Karjakin, Sergey"]
[WhiteElo "2853"]
[BlackElo "2772"]
[ECO "C50"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 {0s} e5 {7s} 2. Nf3 {0s} Nc6 {4s} 3. Bc4 {0s} Bc5
{5s} 4. O-O {0s} Nf6 {5s} 5. d3 {0s} O-O {7s} 6. a4 {13s}
d6 {43s} 7. c3 {33s} a6 {7s} 8. b4 {21s} Ba7 {21s} 9. Re1
{6s} Ne7 {2:19m} 10. Nbd2 {1:08m} Ng6 {50s} 11. d4 {1:21m}
c6 {7:11m} 12. h3 {3:14m} exd4 {17:50m} 13. cxd4 {13s} Nxe4
{8:17m} 14. Bxf7+ {8:45m} Rxf7 {15s} 15. Nxe4 {10s} d5
{3:37m} 16. Nc5 {15:37m} h6 {5:12m} 17. Ra3 {1:33m} Bf5
{2:40m} 18. Ne5 {21:02m} Nxe5 {37s} 19. dxe5 {51s} Qh4
{26:26m} 20. Rf3 {16:11m} Bxc5 {5:27m} 21. bxc5 {2s} Re8
{8s} 22. Rf4 {1:28m} Qe7 {25s} 23. Qd4 {46s} Ref8 {33s}
24. Rf3 {3:53m} Be4 {5:32m} 25. Rxf7 {2:34m} Qxf7 {17s}
26. f3 {1:10m} Bf5 {7s} 27. Kh2 {3:57m} Be6 {1:22m} 28. Re2
{1:54m} Qg6 {1:36m} 29. Be3 {1:07m} Rf7 {1:32m} 30. Rf2
{1:11m} Qb1 {2:02m} 31. Rb2 {6:04m} Qf5 {2:21m} 32. a5
{3:30m} Kf8 {2:12m} 33. Qc3 {37s} Ke8 {5:28m} 34. Rb4 {37s}
g5 {2:40m} 35. Rb2 {2:59m} Kd8 {33s} 36. Rf2 {24s} Kc8
{1:15m} 37. Qd4 {51s} Qg6 {1:14m} 38. g4 {2:47m} h5 {56s}
39. Qd2 {1:02m} Rg7 {3:35m} 40. Kg3 {0s} Rg8 {2:55m}
41. Kg2 {11:05m} hxg4 {7:26m} 42. hxg4 {30s} d4 {3:51m}
43. Qxd4 {9:37m} Bd5 {8:31m} 44. e6 {6:18m} Qxe6 {52s}
45. Kg3 {2:02m} Qe7 {43s} 46. Rh2 {3:28m} Qf7 {9:08m}
47. f4 {14s} gxf4+ {4s} 48. Qxf4 {26s} Qe7 {3:20m} 49. Rh5
{2:59m} Rf8 {9:04m} 50. Rh7 {3:34m} Rxf4 {23s} 51. Rxe7
{9s} Re4 {4s} 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]

[Sean Evans]

The move I found strange was 44. e6, I felt that white's passed pawn was the best piece to create advantages. Magnus literally just gave it away with little compensation except perhaps increased mobility.

What do you people think?

Sean

[S.Taylor]

Just look at chessbomb on move 40. That which chessbomb was reccomending, namely 40....Qh6, seems to be the truth! And it would have put Karjakin in the drivers seat, and i think he might have won.

The commentators have still not seen it either.

But I'm sure it is going to be in very furious discussion in the coming hours! For a long time!!!

Obviously, Qh6 was not an easy move for a human to notice! But once noticed, it SHOULD have been easy enough for a 2700+ player!

Chessbomb analyses is not very serious, it's only depth 23.
http://analysis.sesse.net/ reaches depth 40 on this position :

Score: -0.21
PV: 40. … Qh6 41. Qd4 Rg8 42. Rh2 Qg7 43. Kg2 Rf8 44. Rh1 Qg6 45. Rd1 Kb8 46. Rf1 Rh8 47. Rh1 Kc8 48. Bd2 Rf8 49. Be3 Rf7 50. Rd1 Rg7 51. Qd3 Qh6 52. Rh1 Kb8 53. Qd2 Rg8 54. Qd4 Qg6 55. Bd2 Qf7 56. Be3 Ka7 57. Rf1 Qh7 58. Rh1 Kb8 59. Bd2 Qg6 60. Be3 Rh8 61. Rc1
1,008,485,271 nodes, 27,171,905 nodes/sec, depth 40 ply (47 selective), 15,197 Syzygy hits

On this line : "Sound: On Off | Sort by: Move Score | (…) 48. Qxf4 Qe7 49. Rh5 Rf8 50. Rh7 Rxf4 51. Rxe7 | Make moves by clicking on them, or on an involved square." , click on '...' to have access to the whole history of moves.

It is hard for me to follow all this as i have not the setup for it on my computer.

But what are you saying? AAre you saying that if karjakin would have played 40....Qh6, he would not have caused the greatest upset possible to Carlsen?

And what is the evaluation of Qh6 after 40-60 plies with stockfish?

We already know one thing, that all top GM's agree that if karjakin would have grabbed the h file around that point, with Rh8, he would have won the game. Even Magnus himself said so.

I simply means a 40 plies deep analyze by SF gives only 0.21 advantage to black with the line

Code: Select all

 Score: -0.21
PV: 40. … Qh6 41. Qd4 Rg8 42. Rh2 Qg7 43. Kg2 Rf8 44. Rh1 Qg6 45. Rd1 Kb8 46. Rf1 Rh8 47. Rh1 Kc8 48. Bd2 Rf8 49. Be3 Rf7 50. Rd1 Rg7 51. Qd3 Qh6 52. Rh1 Kb8 53. Qd2 Rg8 54. Qd4 Qg6...

Code: Select all

 [pgn] [/pgn]

[pgn]
[Event "AGON FWCM 2016"]
[Site "New York"]
[Date "2016.11.18"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Carlsen, Magnus"]
[Black "Karjakin, Sergey"]
[WhiteElo "2853"]
[BlackElo "2772"]
[ECO "C50"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 {0s} e5 {7s} 2. Nf3 {0s} Nc6 {4s} 3. Bc4 {0s} Bc5
{5s} 4. O-O {0s} Nf6 {5s} 5. d3 {0s} O-O {7s} 6. a4 {13s}
d6 {43s} 7. c3 {33s} a6 {7s} 8. b4 {21s} Ba7 {21s} 9. Re1
{6s} Ne7 {2:19m} 10. Nbd2 {1:08m} Ng6 {50s} 11. d4 {1:21m}
c6 {7:11m} 12. h3 {3:14m} exd4 {17:50m} 13. cxd4 {13s} Nxe4
{8:17m} 14. Bxf7+ {8:45m} Rxf7 {15s} 15. Nxe4 {10s} d5
{3:37m} 16. Nc5 {15:37m} h6 {5:12m} 17. Ra3 {1:33m} Bf5
{2:40m} 18. Ne5 {21:02m} Nxe5 {37s} 19. dxe5 {51s} Qh4
{26:26m} 20. Rf3 {16:11m} Bxc5 {5:27m} 21. bxc5 {2s} Re8
{8s} 22. Rf4 {1:28m} Qe7 {25s} 23. Qd4 {46s} Ref8 {33s}
24. Rf3 {3:53m} Be4 {5:32m} 25. Rxf7 {2:34m} Qxf7 {17s}
26. f3 {1:10m} Bf5 {7s} 27. Kh2 {3:57m} Be6 {1:22m} 28. Re2
{1:54m} Qg6 {1:36m} 29. Be3 {1:07m} Rf7 {1:32m} 30. Rf2
{1:11m} Qb1 {2:02m} 31. Rb2 {6:04m} Qf5 {2:21m} 32. a5
{3:30m} Kf8 {2:12m} 33. Qc3 {37s} Ke8 {5:28m} 34. Rb4 {37s}
g5 {2:40m} 35. Rb2 {2:59m} Kd8 {33s} 36. Rf2 {24s} Kc8
{1:15m} 37. Qd4 {51s} Qg6 {1:14m} 38. g4 {2:47m} h5 {56s}
39. Qd2 {1:02m} Rg7 {3:35m} 40. Kg3 {0s} Rg8 {2:55m}
41. Kg2 {11:05m} hxg4 {7:26m} 42. hxg4 {30s} d4 {3:51m}
43. Qxd4 {9:37m} Bd5 {8:31m} 44. e6 {6:18m} Qxe6 {52s}
45. Kg3 {2:02m} Qe7 {43s} 46. Rh2 {3:28m} Qf7 {9:08m}
47. f4 {14s} gxf4+ {4s} 48. Qxf4 {26s} Qe7 {3:20m} 49. Rh5
{2:59m} Rf8 {9:04m} 50. Rh7 {3:34m} Rxf4 {23s} 51. Rxe7
{9s} Re4 {4s} 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]

I can fully see that now! That the chessbomb evaluation was obviously wrong, if it was depending on 41.Bd4, as shown there, because 41.Qd4 indeed puts a stop to all the great idea behind the 40....Qh6 in question.

So it's a one mover, 41.Qd4 which answers me up here.

So maybe both players DID look at 40....Qh6 but rejected it.
But with a bit of shuffling around, it's interesting that it was around here which both players were so concerned with in the press conference after the game. Magnus himself said he was lucky to escape with a draw. And they were refering to Karjakin missing 42...Rh8, or (maybe?) 43....Rh8