Mates that appear to be draws

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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12845
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Mates that appear to be draws

Post by Dann Corbit »

Code: Select all

8/3pBp2/1K1Pqp2/3p1p2/3PpP2/3nP1Pp/p2P1P2/kbQ3bN w - -
8/2p5/7p/7p/2Q5/p1K1p3/1p3pp1/qk6 w - -
8/5p1p/6pr/6p1/3pn1pb/K2N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - -
8/4Kp1p/6pr/3p2p1/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - -
7R/qp6/bp6/1p6/1P5p/1P5K/1P3k2/8 w - -
4qk2/1K2pN1p/2p1P2P/2p1B3/2P5/3p4/3P4/8 w - -
4q1k1/1K2pN1p/2p1P2P/2p1B3/2Pp4/8/3P4/8 w - -
4qk2/1KB1pN1p/2p1P2P/2p5/2Pp4/8/3P4/8 w - -
3Bq1k1/1K2pN1p/2p1P2P/2p5/2Pp4/8/3P4/8 w - -
8/1k6/8/4p3/Q3p3/4pppp/4prpr/4Kbnq w - -
k7/3Q4/4p3/8/4p3/4pppp/4prpr/4Kbnq w - -
8/4p3/k7/8/4p3/1Q2pppp/4prpr/4Kbnq w - -
8/4p3/8/k7/4p3/4pppp/1Q2prpr/4Kbnq w - -
8/4p3/6p1/k7/4p3/4pp1p/1Q2prpr/4Kbnq w - -
qbnK1n2/1kP2P2/p7/PpQ2P1p/8/7p/8/8 w - -
qbnK1n2/1kP2P2/p7/Pp3P1p/3Q3p/7p/8/8 w - -
8/p4p2/2p5/2P1pP2/2K1P2B/6P1/ppp3pr/kqb1N1Rb w - -
8/p4p2/2p5/2P1pP2/4P2B/5KPr/ppp3p1/kqb1N1Rb w - -
8/3p1p1p/3P1P1P/1PK1p3/1P6/2P2p2/ppp2P2/qkn4R w - -
5R2/2p1p1p1/2P1P1Pp/P2K4/4P3/1p6/ppp1P3/nkn5 w - -
qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P4k/5K2/8/5N2 w - -
8/8/8/8/p4N2/P2K4/5kp1/8 b - -
SF has a particularly hard time with them, solving only one in a reasonable time.
Often, the key move is exactly right, but the plan is exactly wrong.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
peter
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Mates that appear to be draws

Post by peter »

Just had a quick look through the collection so far, one, that doesn't seem to fit to the thread- title is the last one in row (nr.22)
Dann Corbit wrote: Wed Feb 25, 2026 5:42 am ...
8/8/8/8/p4N2/P2K4/5kp1/8 b - -
This is a 6men- tbs- draw with 1...g1N, isn't it?
[d]8/8/8/8/p4N2/P2K4/5kp1/8 b - -
Peter.
peter
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Mates that appear to be draws

Post by peter »

...edit time over, the first one has 3 (probably at least as well as, didn't have much Forward- Backward before copying MultiPV=3- output) equally good first moves as for DTM:

[d]8/3pBp2/1K1Pqp2/3p1p2/3PpP2/3nP1Pp/p2P1P2/kbQ3bN w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

1. +- (#45): 1.Dc8 Sb2 2.Dc3 Ld3 3.Dc1+ Lb1 4.Kc7 Sd3 5.Dc3+ Sb2 6.Kd8 Ld3 7.Dc1+ Lb1 8.Ke8 Sd3 9.Dc3+ Sb2 10.Kf8 Ld3 11.Dc1+ Lb1 12.Kg7 Sd3 13.Dc3+ Sb2 14.Kh6 Ld3 15.Dc1+ Lb1 16.Kh5 Sd3 17.Dc3+ Sb2 18.Kh4 h2 19.Kh5 Ld3 20.Dc1+ Lb1 21.Kh6 Sd3 22.Dc3+ Sb2 23.Kg7 Ld3 24.Dc1+ Lb1 25.Kf8 Sc4 26.Dc3+ Sb2 27.Ke8 Ld3 28.Dc1+ Lb1 29.Kd8 Sd3 30.Dc3+ Sb2 31.Kc7 Ld3 32.Dc1+ Lb1 33.Kb7 Sd3 34.Dc3+ Sb2 35.Kb6 Lxf2 36.Sxf2 Dxe7 37.dxe7 h1D 38.Sxh1 Lc2 39.Dxc2 Sc4+ 40.Ka6 Sa3 41.Db3 Sc4 42.e8T d6 43.Dc3+ Kb1 44.Tb8+ Sb2 45.Dxb2#
2. +- (#45): 1.Dc3+ Sb2 2.Kc7 Ld3 3.Dc1+ Lb1 4.Kc8 Sd3 5.Dc3+ Sb2 6.Kd8 Ld3 7.Dc1+ Lb1 8.Ke8 Sd3 9.Dc3+ Sb2 10.Kf8 Ld3 11.Dc1+ Lb1 12.Kg7 Sd3 13.Dc3+ Sb2 14.Kh6 Ld3 15.Dc1+ Lb1 16.Kh5 Sd3 17.Dc3+ Sb2 18.Kh4 h2 19.Kh5 Ld3 20.Dc1+ Lb1 21.Kh6 Sd3 22.Dc3+ Sb2 23.Kg7 Ld3 24.Dc1+ Lb1 25.Kf8 Sc4 26.Dc3+ Sb2 27.Ke8 Ld3 28.Dc1+ Lb1 29.Kd8 Sd3 30.Dc3+ Sb2 31.Kc7 Ld3 32.Dc1+ Lb1 33.Kb7 Sd3 34.Dc3+ Sb2 35.Kb6 Lxf2 36.Sxf2 Dxe7 37.dxe7 h1D 38.Sxh1 Lc2 39.Dxc2 Sc4+ 40.Ka6 Sa3 41.Db3 Sc4 42.e8T d6 43.Dc3+ Kb1 44.Tb8+ Sb2 45.Dxb2#
3. +- (#45): 1.Dc7 Sb2 2.Dc3 Ld3 3.Dc1+ Lb1 4.Kc7 Sd3 5.Dc3+ Sb2 6.Kd8 Ld3 7.Dc1+ Lb1 8.Ke8 Sd3 9.Dc3+ Sb2 10.Kf8 Ld3 11.Dc1+ Lb1 12.Kg7 Sd3 13.Dc3+ Sb2 14.Kh6 Ld3 15.Dc1+ Lb1 16.Kh5 Sd3 17.Dc3+ Sb2 18.Kh4 h2 19.Kh5 Ld3 20.Dc1+ Lb1 21.Kh6 Sd3 22.Dc3+ Sb2 23.Kg7 Ld3 24.Dc1+ Lb1 25.Kf8 Sc4 26.Dc3+ Sb2 27.Ke8 Ld3 28.Dc1+ Lb1 29.Kd8 Sd3 30.Dc3+ Sb2 31.Kc7 Ld3 32.Dc1+ Lb1 33.Kb7 Sd3 34.Dc3+ Sb2 35.Kb6 Lxf2 36.Sxf2 Dxe7 37.dxe7 h1D 38.Sxh1 Lc2 39.Dxc2 Sc4+ 40.Ka6 Sa3 41.Db3 Sc4 42.e8T d6 43.Dc3+ Kb1 44.Tb8+ Sb2 45.Dxb2#

Derived from
[pgn][Event "no ty"]
[Site "; British Chess Magazine 1881"]
[Date "1881.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Reichhelm=G"]
[Black "(+4074.78a5a1) U5"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteFideId "-1"]
[BlackFideId "-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/3pBp2/3Pqp2/K2p1p2/3PpP2/4P1Pp/pn1P1P2/kbQ3bN w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[GameId "2281357526047151"]
[EventDate "1881.??.??"]

{source: British Chess Magazine 1881; U5: Gamble=R HHdbVI 14-9-2019; posterior pub: The American Chess Magazine#162 no.12 12/1897} 1. Kb6 (1. Kb4 $2 Nd3+) 1... Nd3 2. Qc3+ Nb2 3. Kc7 Bd3 4. Qc1+ Bb1 5. Kd8 Nd3 6. Qc3+ Nb2 7. Ke8 Bd3 8. Qc1+ Bb1 9. Kf8 Nd3 10. Qc3+ Nb2 11. Kg7 Bd3 12. Qc1+ Bb1 13. Kh6 Nd3 14. Qc3+ Nb2 15. Kh5 Bd3 16. Qc1+ Bb1 17. Kh4 h2 18. Kh5 Nd3 19. Qc3+ Nb2 20. Kh6 Bd3 21. Qc1+ Bb1 22. Kg7 Nd3 23. Qc3+ Nb2 24. Kf8 Bd3 25. Qc1+ Bb1 26. Ke8 Nd3 27. Qc3+ Nb2 28. Kd8 Bd3 29. Qc1+ Bb1 30. Kc7 Nd3 31. Qc3+ Nb2 32. Kb6 Bd3 33. Qc1+ Bb1 34. Kb5 Nd3 35. Qc3+ Nb2 36. Kb4 Bd3 37. Ka3 Bb1 38. Qxb2# 1-0
[/pgn]
by cutting off first move.

Second one is quite a similiar problem as for best move:

[d]8/2p5/7p/7p/2Q5/p1K1p3/1p3pp1/qk6 w - - 0 1

Analysis by The Huntsman 1:

1. +- (#40): 1.Dd3+ Ka2 2.Dd5+ Kb1 3.Dxg2 Ka2 4.Dd5+ Kb1 5.Dc4 h4 6.Da6 Ka2 7.De6+ Kb1 8.Dc4 c6 9.De4+ Ka2 10.De6+ Kb1 11.Dc4 c5 12.Dd3+ Ka2 13.Dd5+ Kb1 14.Dc4 h3 15.De4+ Ka2 16.De6+ c4 17.Dxc4+ Kb1 18.De4+ Ka2 19.De6+ Kb1 20.Dxh3 Ka2 21.De6+ Kb1 22.Dc4 h5 23.De4+ Ka2 24.De6+ Kb1 25.Dc4 h4 26.Dd3+ Ka2 27.Dd5+ Kb1 28.Dc4 h3 29.De4+ Ka2 30.De6+ Kb1 31.Dxh3 e2 32.Dd3+ Ka2 33.Dc4+ Kb1 34.Dxe2 Ka2 35.Dc4+ Kb1 36.Kd2 f1S+ 37.Dxf1+ Ka2 38.Df7+ Kb1 39.Kd3 Da2 40.Df1#
2. +- (#40): 1.De4+ Ka2 2.Dd5+ Kb1 3.Dxg2 Ka2 4.Dd5+ Kb1 5.Dc4 h4 6.Da6 Ka2 7.De6+ Kb1 8.Dc4 c6 9.De4+ Ka2 10.De6+ Kb1 11.Dc4 c5 12.Dd3+ Ka2 13.Dd5+ Kb1 14.Dc4 h3 15.De4+ Ka2 16.De6+ c4 17.Dxc4+ Kb1 18.De4+ Ka2 19.De6+ Kb1 20.Dxh3 Ka2 21.De6+ Kb1 22.Dc4 h5 23.De4+ Ka2 24.De6+ Kb1 25.Dc4 h4 26.Dd3+ Ka2 27.Dd5+ Kb1 28.Dc4 h3 29.De4+ Ka2 30.De6+ Kb1 31.Dxh3 e2 32.Dd3+ Ka2 33.Dc4+ Kb1 34.Dxe2 Ka2 35.Dc4+ Kb1 36.Kd2 f1S+ 37.Dxf1+ Ka2 38.Df7+ Kb1 39.Kd3 Da2 40.Df1#

Derived from

[pgn][Event "no ty"]
[Site "; Philadelphia Intelligencer "]
[Date "1887.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Reichhelm=G"]
[Black "(+4666.08c4a2)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteFideId "-1"]
[BlackFideId "-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6n1/2p5/r6p/3Q1b1p/2K5/p1b1p1p1/kp3p2/q4r1n w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[GameId "2281358042479815"]
[EventDate "1887.??.??"]

{stipulation: mate in 64 source: Philadelphia Intelligencer 1887} 1. Kxc3+ Kb1 2. Qxf5+ Ka2 3. Qf7+ Kb1 4. Qh7+ Ka2 5. Qxg8+ Kb1 6. Qh7+ Ka2 7. Qf7+ Kb1 8. Qf5+ Ka2 9. Qd5+ Kb1 10. Qe4+ (10. Qd3+ {<or>} Ka2 11. Qc4+ Kb1 12. Qxf1+) 10... Ka2 11. Qc4+ Kb1 12. Qxf1+ Ka2 13. Qc4+ Kb1 14. Qe4+ Ka2 15. Qd5+ Kb1 16. Qxh1+ Ka2 17. Qd5+ Kb1 18. Qd3+ (18. Qe4+ {<or>}) 18... Ka2 19. Qc4+ Kb1 20. Qxa6 Ka2 21. Qc4+ Kb1 22. Qe4+ (22. Qd3+ {<or>}) 22... Ka2 23. Qe6+ Kb1 24. Qc4 g2 25. Qe4+ Ka2 26. Qd5+ Kb1 27. Qxg2 Ka2 28. Qd5+ Kb1 29. Qc4 1-0
[/pgn]

by cutting off first 24 moves.

Third one:

[pgn][Event "MTATBD"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "2x"]
[Black "#55(#57)?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Huntsman"]
[WhiteFideId "-1"]
[BlackFideId "-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/5p1p/6pr/6p1/3pn1pb/K2N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "109"]
[GameId "2281349772701744"]

1. Kb4 (1. Kb2 Rh5 2. Ka3 Rh6 3. Kb4 Rh5 4. Ka5 Rh6 5. Kb6 Rh5 6. Kc7 Rh6 7. Kd8 Rh5 8. Ke7 Rh6 9. Kf8 Rh5 10. Kg7 f6 11. Kg8 Rh6 12. Kh8 Rh5 13. Kg7 f5 14. Kf8 Rh6 15. Ke7 Rh5 16. Kd8 Rh6 17. Kc7 Rh5 18. Kb6 Rh6 19. Ka5 Rh5 20. Kb4 Rh6 21. Ka3 Rh5 22. Kb2 Rh6 23. Kc1 Rh5 24. Kc2 Rh6 25. Kb2 Rh5 26. Ka3 Rh6 27. Kb4 Rh5 28. Ka5 Rh6 29. Kb6 Rh5 30. Kc7 Rh6 31. Kd8 Rh5 32. Ke7 Rh6 33. Kf8 Rh5 34. Kg7 f4 35. Kf8 Rh6 36. Ke7 Rh5 37. Kd8 Rh6 38. Kc7 Rh5 39. Kb6 Rh6 40. Ka5 Rh5 41. Kb4 Rh6 42. Ka3 Rh5 43. Kb2 Rh6 44. Kc2 Rh5 45. Kc1 Rh6 46. Kb2 Rh5 47. Ka3 Rh6 48. Kb4 Rh5 49. Ka5 Rh6 50. Kb6 Rh5 51. Kc7 Rh6 52. Kd8 Rh5 53. Ke7 Rh6 54. Kf8 Rh5 55. Kg7 Rh6 56. Kxh6 Nf6 57. Bxf2#) 1... Rh5 2. Ka5 Rh6 3. Kb6 Rh5 4. Kc7 Rh6 5. Kd8 Rh5 6. Ke7 Rh6 7. Kf8 Rh5 8. Kg7 f6 9. Kg8 Rh6 10. Kh8 f5 11. Kg7 Rh5 12. Kf8 Rh6 13. Ke7 Rh5 14. Kd8 Rh6 15. Kc7 Rh5 16. Kb6 Rh6 17. Ka5 Rh5 18. Kb4 Rh6 19. Ka3 Rh5 20. Kb2 Rh6 21. Kc2 Rh5 22. Kc1 Rh6 23. Kb2 Rh5 24. Ka3 Rh6 25. Kb4 Rh5 26. Ka5 Rh6 27. Kb6 Rh5 28. Kc7 Rh6 29. Kd8 Rh5 30. Ke7 Rh6 31. Kf8 Rh5 32. Kg7 f4 33. Kf8 Rh6 34. Ke7 Rh5 35. Kd8 Rh6 36. Kc7 Rh5 37. Kb6 Rh6 38. Ka5 Rh5 39. Kb4 Rh6 40. Ka3 Rh5 41. Kb2 Rh6 42. Kc2 Rh5 43. Kc1 Rh6 44. Kb2 Rh5 45. Ka3 Rh6 46. Kb4 Rh5 47. Ka5 Rh6 48. Kb6 Rh5 49. Kc7 Rh6 50. Kd8 Rh5 51. Ke7 Rh6 52. Kf8 Rh5 53. Kg7 Rh6 54. Kxh6 Nf6 55. Bxf2# 1-0
[/pgn]

Derived from a Troitzky- study with cutting off first 31 moves from original starting position and changing at that point side to move:
[pgn][Event "no ty"]
[Site "; Deutsche Schachzeitung 6 /1"]
[Date "1914.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Troitzky=A"]
[Black "(+0877.07h8g3) V U2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteFideId "-1"]
[BlackFideId "-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "7K/5p1p/3p2p1/B5pr/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/6RR w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "179"]
[GameId "2281355198194553"]
[EventDate "1914.??.??"]

{stipulation: mate in 92 source: Deutsche Schachzeitung 6 /1914; (v): (source unknown 0000); U2: Wiereyn=P Computerschaak=1 3/2010} 1. Be1 Rh6 2. Kg7 Rh5 3. Kf8 (3. Kxf7 $1 {<cook PW>} Rh6 4. Kf8 Rh5 5. Kg7 d5 6. Kf8 Rh6 7. Ke7 Rh5 8. Kd8 Rh6 9. Kc7 Rh5 10. Kb6 Rh6 11. Kc6 Rh5 12. Kc7 Rh6 13. Kd8 Rh5 14. Ke7 Rh6 15. Kf8 Rh5 16. Kg7 d4 17. Kf8 Rh6 18. Ke7 Rh5 19. Kd8 Rh6 20. Kc7 Rh5 21. Kb6 Rh6 22. Ka5 Rh5 23. Kb4 Rh6 24. Ka3 Rh5 25. Kb2 Rh6 26. Kc1 Rh5 27. Kc2 Rh6 28. Kb2 Rh5 29. Ka3 Rh6 30. Kb4 Rh5 31. Ka5 Rh6 32. Kb6 Rh5 33. Kc7 Rh6 34. Kd8 Rh5 35. Ke7 Rh6 36. Kf8 Rh5 37. Kg7 h6 38. Kf8 Nf6 39. Bxf2#) 3... Rh6 4. Ke7 Rh5 5. Kd8 Rh6 6. Kc8 Rh5 7. Kc7 Rh6 8. Kd8 Rh5 9. Ke7 Rh6 10. Kf8 Rh5 11. Kg7 d5 12. Kf8 Rh6 13. Ke7 Rh5 14. Kd8 Rh6 15. Kc7 Rh5 16. Kb8 Rh6 17. Ka7 Rh5 18. Ka8 Rh6 19. Kb8 Rh5 20. Kc7 Rh6 21. Kd8 Rh5 22. Ke7 Rh6 23. Kf8 Rh5 24. Kg7 d4 25. Kf8 Rh6 26. Ke7 Rh5 27. Kd8 Rh6 28. Kc7 Rh5 29. Kb6 Rh6 30. Ka5 Rh5 31. Kb4 Rh6 32. Ka3 Rh5 33. Kb2 Rh6 34. Kc2 Rh5 35. Kc1 Rh6 36. Kb2 Rh5 37. Ka3 Rh6 38. Kb4 Rh5 39. Ka5 Rh6 40. Kb6 Rh5 41. Kc7 Rh6 42. Kd8 Rh5 43. Ke7 Rh6 44. Kf8 Rh5 45. Kg7 f6 46. Kf8 Rh6 47. Kg8 Rh5 48. Kg7 f5 49. Kf8 Rh6 50. Ke7 Rh5 51. Kd8 Rh6 52. Kc7 Rh5 53. Kb6 Rh6 54. Ka5 Rh5 55. Kb4 Rh6 56. Ka3 Rh5 57. Kb2 Rh6 58. Kc2 Rh5 59. Kc1 Rh6 60. Kb2 Rh5 61. Ka3 Rh6 62. Kb4 Rh5 63. Ka5 Rh6 64. Kb6 Rh5 65. Kc7 Rh6 66. Kd8 Rh5 67. Ke7 Rh6 68. Kf8 Rh5 69. Kg7 f4 70. Kf8 Rh6 71. Ke7 Rh5 72. Kd8 Rh6 73. Kc7 Rh5 74. Kb6 Rh6 75. Ka5 Rh5 76. Kb4 Rh6 77. Ka3 Rh5 78. Kb2 Rh6 79. Kc2 Rh5 80. Kc1 Rh6 81. Kb2 Rh5 82. Ka3 Rh6 83. Kb4 Rh5 84. Ka5 Rh6 85. Kb6 Rh5 86. Kc7 Rh6 87. Kd8 Rh5 88. Ke7 Rh6 89. Kf8 Rh5 90. Kg7 1-0[/pgn]
Peter.
Dann Corbit
Posts: 12845
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Mates that appear to be draws

Post by Dann Corbit »

Just had a quick look through the collection so far, one, that doesn't seem to fit to the thread- title is the last one in row (nr.22)...
8/8/8/8/p4N2/P2K4/5kp1/8 b - -
This is a 6men- tbs- draw with 1...g1N, isn't it?
[d]8/8/8/8/p4N2/P2K4/5kp1/8 b - -
Yes. There was a bug in my database (that one had dm=13 marked in my database table, but the score was zero and the correct move of g1=N was stored. Not sure how the bad dm value got entered.
My query to produce the list was positions with a dm score bigger than zero but deep searches in the alternate evaluation table that were draws. So a bug in my main table created that result.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
Dann Corbit
Posts: 12845
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Mates that appear to be draws

Post by Dann Corbit »

These are my database records for the given problems

Code: Select all

3Bq1k1/1K2pN1p/2p1P2P/2p5/2Pp4/8/3P4/8 w - - acd 126; bm Bc7; ce 32682; c4 "Bondarenko=F; pm=Bc7; 1-0;"; dm 43; pv Bc7 Kf8 Be5 Kg8 Bg7 d3 Bc3 Qf8 Ba5 Qe8 Bd8 Kf8 Ka6 Kg8 Ka5 Qf8 Ka4 Qe8 Kb3 Qf8 Kc3 Qe8 Kxd3 Kf8 Kc3 Kg8 Kb3 Qf8 Ka4 Qe8 Ka5 Qf8 Kb6 Qe8 Kb7 Qf8 Bb6 Qe8 Bxc5 Qf8 d4 Qe8 Bb6 c5 dxc5 Qa4 Ne5 Qa2 c6 Qg2 Kb8 Qb2 c5 Qxe5+ c7 Qf4 c6 Kf8 Kb7 Qxh6 c8=Q+ Kg7 Qe8 Kf6 c7 Qh1+ Qc6 Qxc6+ Kxc6 Kxe6 c8=Q+ Ke5 Qg4 Kf6 Qf3+ Kg5 Kd7 h5 Be3+ Kg6 Kxe7 Kg7 Qf7+ Kh8 Bd4+; 
4q1k1/1K2pN1p/2p1P2P/2p1B3/2Pp4/8/3P4/8 w - - acd 133; bm Bg7; ce 32686; c4 "Bondarenko=F; pm=Bg7; 1-0;"; dm 41; pv Bg7 d3 Be5 Kf8 Bc7 Kg8 Bd8 Kf8 Ka6 Kg8 Ka5 Qf8 Ka4 Qe8 Kb3 Qf8 Kc3 Qe8 Kxd3 Kf8 Kc2 Kg8 Kb3 Qf8 Ka4 Qe8 Ka5 Qf8 Ka6 Qe8 Kb7 Qf8 Bb6 Qe8 Bxc5 Qf8 d4 Qe8 Bb6 c5 dxc5 Qa4 Ne5 Qa2 c6 Qg2 Kb8 Qb2 c5 Qxe5+ c7 Qf4 c6 Kf8 Kb7 Qxh6 c8=Q+ Kg7 Qe8 Kf6 c7 Qh1+ Qc6 Qxc6+ Kxc6 Kxe6 c8=Q+ Ke5 Qg4 Kf6 Kd7 h5 Qf4+ Kg7 Qg5+ Kf7 Bd4 e5 Bxe5 h4 Qg7+; 
4qk2/1K2pN1p/2p1P2P/2p1B3/2P5/3p4/3P4/8 w - - acd 148; bm Bc7; ce 32690; c4 "Bondarenko=F; pm=Bc7; 1-0;"; dm 39; pv Bc7 Kg8 Bd8 Kf8 Kb6 Kg8 Ka5 Kf8 Ka4 Kg8 Kb3 Kf8 Kc3 Kg8 Kxd3 Kf8 Kc2 Kg8 Kb3 Qf8 Ka4 Qe8 Ka5 Qf8 Kb6 Qe8 Kb7 Qf8 Bb6 Qe8 Bxc5 Qf8 d4 Qe8 Bb6 c5 dxc5 Qa4 Ne5 Qa2 c6 Qg2 Kb8 Qb2 c5 Qxe5+ c7 Qf4 c6 Kf8 Kb7 Qxh6 c8=Q+ Kg7 Qe8 Kf6 c7 Qh1+ Qc6 Qxc6+ Kxc6 Kxe6 c8=Q+ Ke5 Qg4 Kf6 Kd7 h5 Qf4+ Kg7 Kxe7 Kg6 Qf6+ Kh7 Qf7+ Kh8 Bd4+; 
4qk2/1KB1pN1p/2p1P2P/2p5/2Pp4/8/3P4/8 w - - acd 141; bm Be5; ce 32684; c4 "Bondarenko=F; pm=Be5; 1-0;"; dm 42; pv Be5 Kg8 Bg7 d3 Be5 Kf8 Bc7 Kg8 Bd8 Kf8 Kb6 Kg8 Ka5 Kf8 Ka4 Kg8 Kb3 Qf8 Kc3 Qe8 Kxd3 Kf8 Kc3 Kg8 Kb3 Qf8 Ka4 Qe8 Ka5 Qf8 Ka6 Qe8 Kb7 Qf8 Bb6 Qe8 Bxc5 Qf8 d4 Qe8 Bb6 c5 dxc5 Qa4 Ne5 Qa2 c6 Qg2 Kb8 Qb2 c5 Qxe5+ c7 Qf4 c6 Kf8 Kb7 Qxh6 c8=Q+ Kg7 Qd7 Kf6 c7 Qh1+ Qc6 Qxc6+ Kxc6 Kxe6 c8=Q+ Ke5 Qg4 Kf6 Qf3+ Kg5 Kd7 h5 Be3+ Kg6 Kxe7 Kg7 Qf7+ Kh8 Bd4+; 
5R2/2p1p1p1/2P1P1Pp/P2K4/4P3/1p6/ppp1P3/nkn5 w - - acd 148; bm Rf1; ce 32728; c4 "sp.p Muradov-65 JT 2015; Muradov JT 2015; Zinar=M; (+0106.68d5b1)"; dm 20; pv Rf1 h5 a6 h4 a7 h3 a8N h2 Nb6 cxb6 c7 b5 c8N b4 Nd6 exd6 e5 h1Q+ Rxh1 dxe5 e7 e4 e8N e3 Nf6 gxf6 g7 f5 g8N f4 Nf6 f3 Ne4 fxe2 Kc4 e1Q Rxe1 e2 Nd2+; 
7R/qp6/bp6/1p6/1P5p/1P5K/1P3k2/8 w - - acd 74; bm Kxh4; ce 32696; c4 "Shinkman=W; pm=Kxh4; 1-0;"; dm 36; pv Kxh4 Ke3 Kg5 Ke4 Kf6 Kd5 Ke7 Kc6 Rc8+ Kd5 Kd7 Ke5 Rh8 Kf5 Ke7 Ke5 Rd8 Kf5 Kf7 Ke5 Kg8 Ke6 Kf8 Kf5 Re8 Kg6 Ke7 Kf5 Kf7 Kg5 Kg7 Kf5 Kh8 Kf6 Kg8 Kf5 Kg7 Kf4 Kg6 Kg3 Rf8 Kg4 Kh6 Qa8 Rxa8 Kf5 Re8 Kf6 Kh5 Kf5 Re1 Kf4 Kg6 Kg3 Kf5 Kf2 Re7 Kf3 Kg5 Kg2 Kg4 Kf2 Re8 Kg2 Rf8 Kh2 Kf3 Kh1 Kf2 Kh2 Rh8+; 
8/1k6/8/4p3/Q3p3/4pppp/4prpr/4Kbnq w - - acd 96; bm Qa5; ce 32720; c4 "Korolkov=V; pm=Qa5; 1-0;"; dm 24; pv Qa5 Kc6 Qb4 Kd5 Qc3 Kd6 Qc4 Kd7 Qc5 Kd8 Qc6 Ke7 Qd5 Ke8 Qd6 Kf7 Qxe5 Kf8 Qe6 Kg7 Qf5 Kg8 Qf6 Kh7 Qg5 Kh8 Qxg3 Kh7 Qe5 Kg8 Qf6 Kh7 Qf8 Kg6 Qe7 Kf5 Qd6 Kg5 Qe6 Kh5 Qf6 Kg4 Qg6+ Kf4 Qh5 Kg3 Qg5+; 
8/2p5/7p/7p/2Q5/p1K1p3/1p3pp1/qk6 w - - acd 101; bm Qe4+; ce 32688; c4 "Reichhelm=G; pm=Qe4+; 1-0;"; dm 40; pv Qe4+ Ka2 Qd5+ Kb1 Qxg2 Ka2 Qg8+ Kb1 Qc4 h4 Qd3+ Ka2 Qd5+ Kb1 Qc4 c6 Qe4+ Ka2 Qe6+ Kb1 Qc4 c5 Qb5 h3 Qd3+ Ka2 Qc4+ Kb1 Qe4+ Ka2 Qe6+ Kb1 Qxh3 Ka2 Qe6+ Kb1 Qc4 h5 Qe4+ Ka2 Qe6+ Kb1 Qc4 h4 Qe4+ Ka2 Qe6+ Kb1 Qc4 e2 Qxe2 Ka2 Qe6+ Kb1 Qc4 h3 Qe4+ Ka2 Qe6+ c4 Qxc4+ Kb1 Qe4+ Ka2 Qe6+ Kb1 Qxh3 Ka2 Qe6+ Kb1 Qc4 f1=R Qxf1+ Ka2 Qf7+ Kb1 Qc4 a2 Qf1+; 
8/3p1p1p/3P1P1P/1PK1p3/1P6/2P2p2/ppp2P2/qkn4R w - - acd 167; bm b6; ce 32728; c4 "Zinar=M; pm=b6; 1-0;"; dm 20; pv b6 e4 b7 e3 b8N e2 Nc6 dxc6 b5 cxb5 d7 b4 d8N bxc3 Ne6 fxe6 f7 e5 f8N e4 Nd7 e1Q Rxe1 e3 Ne5 e2 Ng6 hxg6 h7 g5 h8N g4 Nf7 g3 Nd6 gxf2 Nb5 fxe1Q Na3+; 
8/3pBp2/1K1Pqp2/3p1p2/3PpP2/3nP1Pp/p2P1P2/kbQ3bN w - - acd 93; bm Qc3+; ce 32678; c4 "Reichhelm=G; pm=Qc3+; 1-0;"; dm 45; pv Qc3+ Nb2 Kc7 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kd8 Nd3 Qc3+ Nb2 Ke8 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kf8 Nd3 Qc3+ Nb2 Kg8 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kh7 Nd3 Qc3+ Nb2 Kh6 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kh5 Nd3 Qc3+ Nb2 Kh4 h2 Kh5 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kh6 Nd3 Qc3+ Nb2 Kg7 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kf8 Nd3 Qc3+ Nb2 Ke8 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kd8 Nd3 Qc3+ Nb2 Kc7 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kb6 Nd3 Qc3+ Nb2 Ka5 Bd3 Qc1+ Bb1 Kb5 Bxf2 Nxf2 h1=N Nxh1 Nd1 Kb4 Qe5 dxe5 d4 Ka3 dxe3 Bxf6 exd2 e6+ Nb2 Bxb2+; 
8/4Kp1p/6pr/3p2p1/4n1pb/3N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - - acd 150; bm Kf8; ce 32628; c4 "Troitzky=A; pm=Kf8; 1-0;"; dm 70; pv Kf8 Rh5 Kg7 d4 Kf8 Rh6 Ke7 Rh5 Kd8 Rh6 Kc7 Rh5 Kb6 Rh6 Ka5 Rh5 Kb4 Rh6 Ka3 Rh5 Kb2 Rh6 Kc2 Rh5 Kc1 Rh6 Kb2 Rh5 Ka3 Rh6 Kb4 Rh5 Ka5 Rh6 Kb6 Rh5 Kc7 Rh6 Kd8 Rh5 Ke7 Rh6 Kf8 Rh5 Kg7 f6 Kg8 Rh6 Kf8 Rh5 Kg7 f5 Kf8 Rh6 Ke7 Rh5 Kd8 Rh6 Kc7 Rh5 Kb6 Rh6 Ka5 Rh5 Kb4 Rh6 Ka3 Rh5 Kb2 Rh6 Kc2 Rh5 Kc1 Rh6 Kb2 Rh5 Ka3 Rh6 Kb4 Rh5 Ka5 Rh6 Kb6 Rh5 Kc7 Rh6 Kd8 Rh5 Ke7 Rh6 Kf8 Rh5 Kg7 f4 Kf8 Rh6 Ke7 Rh5 Kd8 Rh6 Kc7 Rh5; 
8/4p3/6p1/k7/4p3/4pp1p/1Q2prpr/4Kbnq w - - acd 110; bm Qb3; ce 32694; c4 "Korolkov=V; pm=Qb3; 1-0;"; dm 37; pv Qb3 e6 Qc4 g5 Qb3 g4 Qc4 Kb6 Qxe6+ Kb5 Qb3+ Kc5 Qa4 Kb6 Qc4 Ka5 Qb3 Ka6 Qb4 Ka7 Qb5 Ka8 Qb6 g3 Qb5 Ka7 Qc6 Kb8 Qa6 Kc7 Qb5 Kc8 Qb6 Kd7 Qc5 Kd8 Qc6 Ke7 Qd5 Ke8 Qd6 Kf7 Qe5 Kf8 Qe6 Kg7 Qf5 Kh8 Qg5 Kh7 Qxg3 Kh6 Qc7 Kg5 Qf7 Kh6 Qf6+ Kh7 Qf8 Kg6 Qe7 Kf5 Qd6 Kg5 Qe6; 
8/4p3/8/k7/4p3/4pppp/1Q2prpr/4Kbnq w - - acd 102; bm Qb3; ce 32704; c4 "Korolkov=V; pm=Qb3; 1-0;"; dm 32; pv Qb3 e6 Qc4 Kb6 Qa4 Kc5 Qb3 e5 Qb8 Kc4 Qb2 Kc5 Qb3 Kc6 Qb4 Kd5 Qc3 Kd6 Qc4 Kd7 Qc5 Ke6 Qc6+ Ke7 Qd5 Ke8 Qd6 Kf7 Qxe5 Kf8 Qe6 Kg7 Qf5 Kg8 Qf6 Kh7 Qf8 Kg6 Qe7 Kf5 Qd6 Kg5 Qe6 Kf4 Qf6+ Kg4 Qe5 Kh4 Qf4+ Kh5 Qxg3 Kh6 Qg8 Kh5 Qg7 Kh4 Qh6+ Kg4; 
8/4p3/k7/8/4p3/1Q2pppp/4prpr/4Kbnq w - - acd 87; bm Qb4; ce 32708; c4 "Korolkov=V; pm=Qb4; 1-0;"; dm 30; pv Qb4 e6 Qc5 Kb7 Qd6 Ka7 Qc6 Kb8 Qa6 e5 Qa3 Kc7 Qb3 Kc6 Qb4 Kc7 Qb5 Kd6 Qc4 Kd7 Qc5 Kd8 Qc6 Ke7 Qd5 Ke8 Qd6 Kf7 Qxe5 Kf8 Qe6 Kg7 Qf5 Kg8 Qf6 Kh7 Qg5 Kh8 Qxg3 Kh7 Qe5 Kg8 Qf6 Kh7 Qf8 Kg6 Qe7 Kf5 Qd6 Kg5 Qe6 Kh5 Qf6 Kg4; 
8/5p1p/6pr/6p1/3pn1pb/K2N1bk1/4prn1/4B1RR w - - acd 185; bm Kb4; ce 32658; c4 "Troitzky=A; pm=Kb4; 1-0;"; dm 55; pv Kb4 Rh5 Ka5 Rh6 Kb6 Rh5 Kc7 Rh6 Kd8 Rh5 Ke7 Rh6 Kf8 Rh5 Kg7 f6 Kg8 Rh6 Kh8 Rh5 Kg7 f5 Kf8 Rh6 Ke7 Rh5 Kd8 Rh6 Kc7 Rh5 Kb6 Rh6 Ka5 Rh5 Kb4 Rh6 Ka3 Rh5; 
8/p4p2/2p5/2P1pP2/2K1P2B/6P1/ppp3pr/kqb1N1Rb w - - acd 163; bm Kb3; ce 32666; c4 "Hlinka=M Bunka=V; pm=Kb3; 1-0;"; dm 51; pv Kb3 Rh3 Ka4 Rh2 Ka3 Rh3 Kb3 Rh2 Kc4 Rh3 Kd3 Rh2 Ke2 Rh3 Kf3 Rh2 Kg4 a6 Kf3 Rh3 Ke2 Rh2 Kd3 Rh3 Kc4 Rh2 Kb3 Rh3 Ka4 Rh2 Ka3 Rh3 Kb3 Rh2 Kc4 Rh3 Kd3 Rh2 Ke2 Rh3 Kf3 Rh2 Kg4 a5 Kf3 Rh3 Ke2 Rh2 Kd3 Rh3 Kc4 Rh2 Kb3 Rh3 Ka3 Rh2 Ka4 Rh3 Kb3 Rh2 Kc4 Rh3 Kd3 Rh2 Ke2 Rh3 Kf3 Rh2 Kg4 a4 f6 a3 Kf3 Rh3 Ke2 Rh2 Kd3 Rh3 Kc4 Rh2 Kb3 Rh3 Ka4 Rh2 Kxa3 Rh3 Kb3 Rh2 Kc4 Rh3 Kd3 Rh2 Ke2 Rh3 Kf3 Rh2 Kg4 Rxh4+ gxh4 Be3 Nxc2+; 
8/p4p2/2p5/2P1pP2/4P2B/5KPr/ppp3p1/kqb1N1Rb w - - acd 167; bm Ke2; ce 32660; c4 "Hlinka=M Bunka=V; pm=Ke2; 1-0;"; dm 54; pv Ke2 Rh2 Kd3 Rh3 Kc4 Rh2 Kb3 Rh3 Ka4 Rh2 Ka3 Rh3 Kb3 Rh2 Kc4 Rh3 Kd3 Rh2 Ke2 Rh3 Kf3 Rh2 Kg4 a6 Kf3 Rh3 Ke2 Rh2 Kd3 Rh3 Kc4 Rh2 Kb3 Rh3 Ka3 Rh2 Ka4 Rh3 Kb3 Rh2 Kc4 Rh3 Kd3 Rh2 Ke2 Rh3 Kf3 Rh2 Kg4 a5 Kf3 Rh3 Ke2 Rh2 Kd3 Rh3 Kc4 Rh2 Kb3 Rh3 Ka4 Rh2 Ka3 Rh3 Kb3 Rh2 Kc4 Rh3 Kd3 Rh2 Ke2 Rh3 Kf3 Rh2 Kg4 a4 f6 a3 Kf3 Rh3 Ke2 Rh2 Kd3 Rh3 Kc4 Rh2 Kb3 Rh3 Kxa3 Rh2 Ka4 Rh3 Kb3 Rh2 Kc4 Rh3 Kd3 Rh2 Ke2 Rh3 Kf3 Rh2 Kg4 Rxh4+ gxh4 Bd2 Nxc2+; 
k7/3Q4/4p3/8/4p3/4pppp/4prpr/4Kbnq w - - acd 79; bm Qc7; ce 32714; c4 "Korolkov=V; pm=Qc7; 1-0;"; dm 27; pv Qc7 e5 Qc8+ Ka7 Qc6 Kb8 Qa6 Kc7 Qb5 Kd6 Qc4 Kd7 Qc5 Ke6 Qc6+ Ke7 Qc7+ Ke6 Qd8 Kf7 Qd6 Ke8 Qc7 Kf8 Qd7 Kg8 Qe7 Kh8 Qg5 Kh7 Qxg3 Kh8 Qg5 Kh7 Qd8 Kg7 Qe8 Kf6 Qd7 Kg6 Qe7 Kf5 Qf7+ Kg5 Qg7+ Kh4 Qxe5 Kg4 Qa5 Kh4 Qf5 Kg3 Qg5+; 
qbnK1n2/1kP2P2/p7/Pp3P1p/3Q3p/7p/8/8 w - - acd 128; bm Qc5; ce 32666; c4 "Zemlyansky=Y; pm=Qc5; 1-0;"; dm 51; pv Qc5 h2 Qd5+ Ka7 Qd4+ Kb7 Qe4+ Ka7 Qe3+ Kb7 Qf3+ Ka7 Qf2+ Kb7 Qxh2 Ka7 Qg1+ Kb7 Qc5 h3 Qd5+ Ka7 Qd4+ Kb7 Qc5 h2 Qd5+ Ka7 Qd4+ Kb7 Qe4+ Ka7 Qe3+ Kb7 Qf3+ Ka7 Qf2+ Kb7 Qxh2 Ka7 Qf2+ Kb7 Qc5 h4 Qd5+ Ka7 Qd4+ Kb7 Qc5 h3 Qc3 Ka7 Qd4+ Kb7 Qc5 h2 Qd5+ Ka7 Qd4+ Kb7 Qe4+ Ka7 Qe3+ Kb7 Qf3+ Ka7 Qf2+ Kb7 Qxh2 Ka7 Qf2+ Kb7 Qc5 b4 Qxb4+ Kc6 cxb8=R Qxb8 Qxb8 Nd6 Ke7 Nxf7 Qe8+ Kd5 Qxf7+ Ke4 Qxf8 Kf3 Qb8 Kg2 f6 Kf1 f7 Kg1 f8=Q Kg2 Qb2+ Kg3 Qbg7+ Kh2 Qfh8+; 
qbnK1n2/1kP2P2/p7/PpQ2P1p/8/7p/8/8 w - - acd 85; bm Qc2; ce 32686; c4 "Zemlyansky=Y; pm=Qd5+; 1-0;"; dm 41; pv Qc2 Ka7 Qf2+ Kb7 Qc5 h2 Qd5+ Ka7 Qd4+ Kb7 Qe4+ Ka7 Qe3+ Kb7 Qf3+ Ka7 Qf2+ Kb7 Qxh2 Ka7 Qg1+ Kb7 Qc5 h4 Qd5+ Ka7 Qd4+ Kb7 Qc5 h3 Qc3 Ka7 Qe3+ Kb7 Qc5; 
qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P4k/5K2/8/5N2 w - - acd 81; bm Ne3; ce 32692; dm 38; pv Ne3 Kh5 Kf4 Kh4 Ng4 Kh3 Kf3 Kh4 Nf2 Kh5 Nh3 Kh4 Nf4 Kg5 Ng2 Kf5 Nh4+ Kg5 Kg3 Kh5 Nf3 Kg6 Kf4 Kh6 Nh4 Kh5 Nf5 Kg6 Ng3 Kf6 Nh5+ Kg6 Kg4 Kh6 Nf4 Kg7 Kf5 Kh7 Nh5 Kh6 Nf6 Kg7 Ng4 Kf7 Nh6+ Kg7 Kg5 Kh8 Kf6 Kh7 Nf7 Kg8 Kg6 Kf8 Nh6 Ke8 Nf5 Kf8 Ne7 Ke8 Nxc8 Kf8 Nxa7 Ke8 Kg7 Kd8 Kf8 Qxa7 bxa7 Kc8 a8=Q b5 Qa7 bxc4 Qc7+; 
Obviously several sets are related to each other
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Re: Mates that appear to be draws

Post by Dann Corbit »

Not sure where this one came from:
[d]qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P4k/5K2/8/5N2 w - -
I can't find a source for it.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
peter
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Mates that appear to be draws

Post by peter »

Dann Corbit wrote: Thu Feb 26, 2026 4:36 am Not sure where this one came from:
[d]qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P4k/5K2/8/5N2 w - -
I can't find a source for it.
Nor can't I, it remembers me to theNeghina- study Slowness:

https://chichitza.ro/Chess.html?lang=de&aux=08

, with some more figures on board.

Anyhow, as for many of the cyclic zugzwang moremovers, there ar at least two very near to each other first one moves with about same DTM (compared to the overall length of the lines) , so there's not what's called a single best move automatically judged by GUIs or tools if you don't give all moves of (about) same DTM with bm- syntax, but then again the best DTM should be shown too for a really correct solution, guess, that's what the thread- title says too, but as for this one .epd of yours
qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P4k/5K2/8/5N2 w - - acd 81; bm Ne3; ce 32692; dm 38;
it should rahter say bm Ne3 Nh2; dm 37 with at least the shortest one line or better the two (or threee or four?) of them of rather near to each other DTM. In .pgn- notation one could give !? and ?! signs to near to each other root- moves, but those aren't no "nags" (numeric annotation glyphs) of common use in .epd- strings, are they? As for .epd, I'd simply give all first one moves with about same DTM listed after bm, not quite correct neither, but without seeing the output- line together with move order better than just "not solved" having second best first move up with yet the correct (for the chosen move) DTM. Otherwise best move with wrong DTM should be counted not solved as well.
Just my two cents.

[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Neue Partie"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteFideId "-1"]
[BlackFideId "-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P4k/5K2/8/5N2 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[GameId "2281716403003409"]

1. Ne3 (1. Nh2 Kh5 2. Kf4 Kh4 3. Ng4 Kh5 4. Nf2 Kh4 5. Kf3 Kh5 6. Ke3 Kg5 7. Ke4 Kh5 8. Kf5 Kh4 9. Kf4 Kh5 10. Ne4 Kh4 11. Ng5 Kh5 12. Nf3 Kh6 13. Nh4 Kh5 14. Nf5 Kg6 15. Ng3 Kf6 16. Nh5+ Kg6 17. Kg4 Kh6 18. Nf4 Kg7 19. Kg5 Kf7 20. Nh5 Ke6 21. Kf4 Kf7 22. Kf5 Kg8 23. Kg6 Kf8 24. Ng3 Kg8 25. Ne4 Kf8 26. Ng5 Ke8 27. Nf7 Kf8 28. Nh6 Ke8 29. Nf5 Kf8 30. Ne7 Ke8 31. Nxc8 Kf8 32. Nxa7 Ke8 33. Nc8 Kd8 34. Ne7 Ke8 35. Kg7 Kd8 36. Kf8 Qa7 37. bxa7 b5 38. axb8=Q#) 1... Kh5 (1... Kh3 2. Ng4 Kh4 3. Nf2 Kh5 4. Ke4 Kg5 5. Ke5 Kh5 6. Kf5 Kh4 7. Kf4 Kh5 8. Ne4 Kh6 9. Nd2 Kh5 10. Nf3 Kg6 11. Nd4 Kf6 12. Ne2 Kg6 13. Ng3 Kf6 14. Nh5+ Kg6 15. Kg4 Kh6 16. Nf4 Kg7 17. Kg5 Kf7 18. Nh5 Ke6 19. Kf4 Kf7 20. Kf5 Kg8 21. Kg6 Kf8 22. Ng3 Kg8 23. Ne4 Kf8 24. Ng5 Kg8 25. Nf7 Kf8 26. Nh6 Ke8 27. Nf5 Kd8 28. Ne7 Ke8 29. Nxc8 Kf8 30. Nxa7 Ke8 31. Nc8 Kf8 32. Ne7 Ke8 33. Kg7 Kd8 34. Kf7 Qa7 35. bxa7 b5 36. axb8=Q#) 2. Nf5 Kg5 3. Ne7 Kh4 4. Nxc8 Kh3 5. Nxa7 Kh2 6. Nc8 Kg1 7. Ke2 Kg2 8. Ne7 Kg3 9. Ng6 Kg4 10. Ke3 Kg5 11. Nf4 Kf6 12. Ne2 Kf5 13. Kd4 Kg5 14. Ke5 Kg4 15. Ke4 Kh4 16. Kf4 Kh3 17. Kf3 Kh4 18. Nd4 Kg5 19. Kg3 Kh5 20. Nf3 Kg6 21. Kf4 Kh5 22. Kf5 Kh6 23. Kg4 Kg6 24. Ne5+ Kh6 25. Kh4 Kh7 26. Kg5 Kg7 27. Ng4 Kh7 28. Kf6 Kh8 29. Kg6 Kg8 30. Nh6+ Kf8 31. Nf5 Kg8 32. Ne7+ Kf8 33. Kf6 Ke8 34. Kg7 Kd8 35. Kf8 Qa7 36. bxa7 b5 37. axb8=Q#
[/pgn]
For human players it's the "plan" that counts, for engines it's not to be used as test positions without comparing the whole lines to mate of the near to each other DTM- moves. Major problem here is (as for other cyclic zugzwang puzzles often too) that some more first moves but the two shown ones (with King or Night) aren't really much longer as for DTM simply keeping the triangle manouevres working sooner or later by transposition still, regards
Peter.
peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Mates that appear to be draws

Post by peter »

With SlowChess you can keep DTM in hash rather quickly backwards till one but last move, after 1.Ne3 Kh5:

SlowChess Blitz 2.9 avx2 (32768 MB hash, 31 threads)
FEN: qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P4k/2P5/4NK2/8/8 w - - 2 2

[79] M36 00:00.2 14.79M Nf5 Kg5 Ne7 Kh4 Nxc8 Kh3 Nxa7 Kh2 Nc8 Kg1 Ke2 Kg2 Ne7 Kg3 Ng6 Kg4 Ke3 Kf5 Nf4 Kg4 Ne2 Kf5 Kd4 Kg5 Ke5 Kg4 Ke4 Kh4 Kf4 Kh3 Kf3 Kh4 Nd4 Kh5 Kf4 Kh4 Nc2 Kh5 Ne1 Kg6 Kg4 Kh6 Kf5 Kh7 Kg5 Kg7 Nf3 Kf7 Nh2 Kg7 Ng4 Kf7 Kh6 Kf8 Kg6 Kg8 Nh6+ Kf8 Nf5 Kg8 Ne7+ Kf8 Kf6 Ke8 Kg7 Kd8 Kf7 Qa7 bxa7 b6 axb8=Q#

Pity with going backwards one more ply, engine loses correct DTM again with 1...Kh3 instead of ...Kh5, even if we know that not to be really longer from .pgn above (built with Huntsman), quite a big part of way to mate has be to be done to get shorter DTM after 1...Kh3 too, for good luck this time original starting position works too:

SlowChess Blitz 2.9 avx2 (32768 MB hash, 31 threads)
FEN: qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P4k/5K2/8/5N2 w - - 0 1

[81] M37 00:08.3 460.96M Ne3 Kh3 Ng4 Kh4 Nf2 Kh5 Ke4 Kg5 Ke5 Kh5 Kf5 Kh4 Kf4 Kh5 Ne4 Kh4 Ng5 Kh5 Nf3 Kg6 Nd4 Kf6 Ne2 Kg6 Ng3 Kf6 Nh5+ Kg6 Kg4 Kh6 Nf4 Kh7 Kg5 Kg7 Nh5+ Kf7 Kf5 Kg8 Kg6 Kf8 Ng3 Kg8 Nf5 Kh8 Kf6 Kg8 Ke7 Kh8 Kf8 Kh7 Kf7 Kh8 Kg6 Kg8 Ne7+ Kf8 Nxc8 Kg8 Nxa7 Kh8 Nc8 Kg8 Ne7+ Kf8 Kf6 Ke8 Kg7 Kd8 Kf7 Qa7 bxa7 b6 axb8=Q#
Peter.
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Re: Mates that appear to be draws.

Post by Ajedrecista »

Hello:
peter wrote: Thu Feb 26, 2026 9:46 am
Dann Corbit wrote: Thu Feb 26, 2026 4:36 am Not sure where this one came from:
[d]qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P4k/5K2/8/5N2 w - -
I can't find a source for it.
Nor can't I, [...]

[...]
I found the almost exact position:

https://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/P1298591
https://yacpdb.org/#284718

[d]qnb5/rp1p4/pPpP4/P1P5/2P5/6K1/8/6Nk w - - 0 1

There are alternative solutions to the original problem according to PDB database. There are tons of variants that can be replayed at YACPDB. The position originally posted in this thread is a variation with an alternative arrangement of the kings and the white knight.

The book is available online at Google Books:

Baltische schachblätter, Issues 1-5

The problem is at Issue 3 of Baltische schachblätter, Problem No. 135 at page 157, by Friedrich Amelung (Original. Dedicated to the Riga Chess Club). Long solutions with variants are given at pages 168 and 169:
Baltische schachblätter wrote:No. 135. — Zunächst sei bemerkt, dass die Stellung sich als eine mögliche ergiebt und zwar, indem Schwartz vorher gezogen hatte 1. c6, 2. Sc6—b8, 3. Db8—a8, 4. Ta7—a8, 5. Da7—b8.
Der Gang der Lösung ist nachfolgender, wobei zuerst ein kleines nettes Manöver nöthig wird, um den König aus der Ecke zu vertreiben. Nun sind beiläufig allgemein folgende Sätze für eine derartige Position (wie z. B. hier Kg3, Sg1, Kh1) aufzustellen: 1. Der Springer kann den König aus der Ecke vertreiben, 2. der Springer kann den König von jeder Stellung in der Mitte des Brettes an den Rand, dort aber nicht in ein vorher bestimmtes Eckfeld treiben, — wäre z. B. in unserer Aufgabe die Position hier Kf2, Sh2—Kh1, so kann der König zur Ecke a1 hinflüchten und es ist dann kein Mat möglich.
Die Lösung beginnt mit 1. Kf2, Kh2, 2. Se2, Kh1!, 3. Sf4, Kh2 und darauf macht Weiss den Tempozug 4. Kf3!, wonach Kh1! und 5. Ke2, Kg1!, 6. Ke1!!, Kh1, 7. Kf1, Kh2, 8. Kf2, Kh1, 9. Se2, Kh2, 10. Sg3, Kh3, 11. Sf1. — — Nunmehr gilt es, den König bis in die Ecke h8 zu bringen, — es kann natürlich blos das Verfahren gezeigt werden, ohne alle Varianten auszuführen.
[...] TOO LONG TO COPY BY HAND.
Baltic chessboards wrote:No. 135. — First, it should be noted that the position emerges as a possible one, namely because Black had previously played 1. c6, 2. Nc6—b8, 3. Qb8—a8, 4. Ra7—a8, 5. Qa7—b8.
The solution proceeds as follows, beginning with a neat little Maneuver to drive the King out of the corner. Now, the following general principles can be formulated for such a Position (such as Kg3, Ng1, Kh1 here): 1. The Knight can drive the King out of the corner, 2. the Knight can move the King from any position in the center of the board to the edge, but not into a predetermined corner square. For example, if the position in our problem were Kf2, Nh2—Kh1, the King could flee to the corner a1, and mating would then be impossible.
The solution begins with 1. Kf2, Kh2, 2. Ne2, Kh1!, 3. Nf4, Kh2 and then White makes the tempo move 4. Kf3!, followed by Kh1! and 5. Ke2, Kg1!, 6. Ke1!!, Kh1, 7. Kf1, Kh2, 8. Kf2, Kh1, 9. Ne2, Kh2, 10. Ng3, Kh3, 11. Nf1. — — Now the goal is to get the King to the h8 corner, — of course only the procedure can be shown, without executing all the variations.
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Regards from Spain.

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peter
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Re: Mates that appear to be draws

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