Charge of the Light Brigade

[hgm]

I have started a live demo match at http://80.100.28.169/gothic/QN.html , starting from the position:

[d]2n1kn2/3ppp2/1nn2nn1/8/8/8/3PPP2/1Q1QK1Q1 w - -

Currently I am playing Crafty against an engine tuned for this. Seems Crafty gets whipped, as it often loses with the Queens.

I am thinking of holding a tourney with this start position (which is reachable from the FIDE initial position, and thus normal Chess). If people want to subnmit a specially tuned engine, they are welcome!

[michiguel]

I have started a live demo match at http://80.100.28.169/gothic/QN.html , starting from the position:

[d]2n1kn2/3ppp2/1nn2nn1/8/8/8/3PPP2/1Q1QK1Q1 w - -

Currently I am playing Crafty against an engine tuned for this. Seems Crafty gets whipped, as it often loses with the Queens.

I am thinking of holding a tourney with this start position (which is reachable from the FIDE initial position, and thus normal Chess). If people want to subnmit a specially tuned engine, they are welcome!

Now Gaviota could play this. Before it rejected the FEN. I am curious how it would do. In the original position, Gaviota thinks that white has a huge advantage as it should. This is supposed to be very easy for white. Even when this is a weird positions, an engine should play this sensibly.

Miguel

[hgm]

OK, I set up a gauntlet now: the tuned QN engine against:

Gaviota
Daydreamer
Crafty
Stockfish

each 4 games for starters.

Gaviota starts at over +12 for white.

[hgm]

...,

and loses!

Code: Select all

[Event "Computer Chess Game"]
[Site "SCHAAK_PC"]
[Date "2010.03.29"]
[Round "1.1"]
[White "Gaviota 0.74"]
[Black "QueeNy 0.16"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "40/300"]
[FEN "2n1kn2/3ppp2/1nn2nn1/8/8/8/3PPP2/1Q1QK1Q1 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Number "1"]

{--------------
. . n . k n . .
. . . p p p . .
. n n . . n n .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . P P P . .
. Q . Q K . Q .
white to play
--------------}
1. e3 {+12.15/8 14} e5 {+0.58/15 6} 2. Qf3 {+12.33/8 17} Nbd5 {+0.87/14 6}
3. Qf1 {+12.06/8 16} e4 {+1.14/15 7} 4. Q3h1 {+12.04/8 10} Nge5
{+1.79/14 7} 5. Qa6 {+12.03/7 6} Nd6 {+1.73/14 8} 6. Qh8 {+11.90/7 14} Ke7
{+1.92/13 4} 7. Ke2 {+11.86/7 6} Nfg6 {+2.08/13 4} 8. Qhh1 {+11.55/7 6} Nf3
{+2.11/13 6} 9. Qa3 {+10.46/7 8} Nge5 {+2.06/14 8} 10. Qhc1 {+9.54/7 10}
Ke6 {+2.18/14 8} 11. Qba2 {+10.02/7 8} Nf5 {+2.08/13 4} 12. Qf8
{+11.19/7 6} Nd3 {+2.49/12 4} 13. Qca1 {+10.55/6 6} Nfe5 {+2.84/13 7} 14.
Qc8 {+10.33/7 21} Nfg4 {+3.19/12 4} 15. Qe8+ {+10.32/6 5} Nfe7
{+3.25/14 11} 16. Qa4 {+9.83/7 11} Ndf6 {+3.40/13 8} 17. Qb3+ {+10.00/7 14}
d5 {+3.36/15 14} 18. Qh8 {+10.20/7 5} Ngxf2 {+3.36/13 5} 19. Qb7
{+9.58/6 5} N2g4 {+3.31/13 8} 20. Qh3 {+10.09/6 6} d4 {+4.99/12 4} 21. Kf1
{+7.85/6 13} dxe3 {+5.52/14 6} 22. dxe3 {+5.26/6 17} Nfd5 {+5.69/14 8} 23.
Qa2 {+4.18/6 4} Ncb4 {+5.73/13 5} 24. Qa4 {+4.19/6 5} N7c6 {+6.18/13 10}
25. Qb3 {+3.94/6 8} Kd6 {+8.55/14 8} 26. Qg3 {+2.22/6 3} Nc5 {+8.53/14 7}
27. Q3xb4 {+1.33/7 4} Ncxb4 {+8.26/15 7} 28. Qxf7 {+1.21/7 3} Nd7
{+8.39/15 11} 29. Kg1 {+1.98/7 3} Nc2 {+8.47/15 5} 30. Qf5 {+1.70/8 5} N7f6
{+8.59/17 8} 31. Qc8 {+1.63/8 3} Ncxe3 {+8.60/16 5} 32. Kh1 {+1.64/7 5} Ke7
{+8.69/16 5} 33. Qb7+ {+1.57/6 2.4} Ke6 {+8.62/17 6} 34. Qe1 {+1.63/6 2.5}
Nd3 {+8.69/15 8} 35. Qa6+ {+0.93/7 6} Kf5 {+9.58/15 5} 36. Qh4
{+0.39/7 2.7} N5f4 {+11.19/16 7} 37. Qa5+ {-0.02/6 2.7} Ned5 {+11.51/16 7}
38. Kg1 {-1.93/6 3} e3 {+15.38/16 11} 39. Qa2 {-2.34/7 2.5} e2
{+15.32/16 9} 40. Qb1 {-2.98/7 4} Ne5 {+16.52/17 24} 41. Kh1 {-5.87/9 2:00}
Nf3 {+16.56/16 4} 42. Qf2 {-3.81/8 9} e1=Q+ {+16.71/16 5} 43. Qfxe1
{-5.40/9 19} Nxe1 {+319.90/17 7} 44. Qb8 {-9.85/8 9} Ne3 {+319.92/20 7} 45.
Qc8+ {-9.87/8 9} Kg5 {+319.93/21 4} 46. Qh8 {-327.55/9 6} Ne2
{+319.94/22 4} 47. Qh2 {-327.57/10 6} Ne4 {+319.95/25 6} 48. Qxe2
{-327.59/11 6} Ng3+ {+319.96/28 5} 49. Kh2 {-327.61/13 5} Nxe2
{+319.97/30 5} 50. Kh3 {-327.63/64 0.3} Nf2+ {+319.98/33 5} 51. Kh2 Neg4#
{+319.99/36 4}
{Xboard adjudication: Checkmate} 0-1

[michiguel]

...,

and loses!

Code: Select all

[Event "Computer Chess Game"]
[Site "SCHAAK_PC"]
[Date "2010.03.29"]
[Round "1.1"]
[White "Gaviota 0.74"]
[Black "QueeNy 0.16"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "40/300"]
[FEN "2n1kn2/3ppp2/1nn2nn1/8/8/8/3PPP2/1Q1QK1Q1 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Number "1"]

{--------------
. . n . k n . .
. . . p p p . .
. n n . . n n .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . P P P . .
. Q . Q K . Q .
white to play
--------------}
1. e3 {+12.15/8 14} e5 {+0.58/15 6} 2. Qf3 {+12.33/8 17} Nbd5 {+0.87/14 6}
3. Qf1 {+12.06/8 16} e4 {+1.14/15 7} 4. Q3h1 {+12.04/8 10} Nge5
{+1.79/14 7} 5. Qa6 {+12.03/7 6} Nd6 {+1.73/14 8} 6. Qh8 {+11.90/7 14} Ke7
{+1.92/13 4} 7. Ke2 {+11.86/7 6} Nfg6 {+2.08/13 4} 8. Qhh1 {+11.55/7 6} Nf3
{+2.11/13 6} 9. Qa3 {+10.46/7 8} Nge5 {+2.06/14 8} 10. Qhc1 {+9.54/7 10}
Ke6 {+2.18/14 8} 11. Qba2 {+10.02/7 8} Nf5 {+2.08/13 4} 12. Qf8
{+11.19/7 6} Nd3 {+2.49/12 4} 13. Qca1 {+10.55/6 6} Nfe5 {+2.84/13 7} 14.
Qc8 {+10.33/7 21} Nfg4 {+3.19/12 4} 15. Qe8+ {+10.32/6 5} Nfe7
{+3.25/14 11} 16. Qa4 {+9.83/7 11} Ndf6 {+3.40/13 8} 17. Qb3+ {+10.00/7 14}
d5 {+3.36/15 14} 18. Qh8 {+10.20/7 5} Ngxf2 {+3.36/13 5} 19. Qb7
{+9.58/6 5} N2g4 {+3.31/13 8} 20. Qh3 {+10.09/6 6} d4 {+4.99/12 4} 21. Kf1
{+7.85/6 13} dxe3 {+5.52/14 6} 22. dxe3 {+5.26/6 17} Nfd5 {+5.69/14 8} 23.
Qa2 {+4.18/6 4} Ncb4 {+5.73/13 5} 24. Qa4 {+4.19/6 5} N7c6 {+6.18/13 10}
25. Qb3 {+3.94/6 8} Kd6 {+8.55/14 8} 26. Qg3 {+2.22/6 3} Nc5 {+8.53/14 7}
27. Q3xb4 {+1.33/7 4} Ncxb4 {+8.26/15 7} 28. Qxf7 {+1.21/7 3} Nd7
{+8.39/15 11} 29. Kg1 {+1.98/7 3} Nc2 {+8.47/15 5} 30. Qf5 {+1.70/8 5} N7f6
{+8.59/17 8} 31. Qc8 {+1.63/8 3} Ncxe3 {+8.60/16 5} 32. Kh1 {+1.64/7 5} Ke7
{+8.69/16 5} 33. Qb7+ {+1.57/6 2.4} Ke6 {+8.62/17 6} 34. Qe1 {+1.63/6 2.5}
Nd3 {+8.69/15 8} 35. Qa6+ {+0.93/7 6} Kf5 {+9.58/15 5} 36. Qh4
{+0.39/7 2.7} N5f4 {+11.19/16 7} 37. Qa5+ {-0.02/6 2.7} Ned5 {+11.51/16 7}
38. Kg1 {-1.93/6 3} e3 {+15.38/16 11} 39. Qa2 {-2.34/7 2.5} e2
{+15.32/16 9} 40. Qb1 {-2.98/7 4} Ne5 {+16.52/17 24} 41. Kh1 {-5.87/9 2:00}
Nf3 {+16.56/16 4} 42. Qf2 {-3.81/8 9} e1=Q+ {+16.71/16 5} 43. Qfxe1
{-5.40/9 19} Nxe1 {+319.90/17 7} 44. Qb8 {-9.85/8 9} Ne3 {+319.92/20 7} 45.
Qc8+ {-9.87/8 9} Kg5 {+319.93/21 4} 46. Qh8 {-327.55/9 6} Ne2
{+319.94/22 4} 47. Qh2 {-327.57/10 6} Ne4 {+319.95/25 6} 48. Qxe2
{-327.59/11 6} Ng3+ {+319.96/28 5} 49. Kh2 {-327.61/13 5} Nxe2
{+319.97/30 5} 50. Kh3 {-327.63/64 0.3} Nf2+ {+319.98/33 5} 51. Kh2 Neg4#
{+319.99/36 4}
{Xboard adjudication: Checkmate} 0-1

Very very interesting... Gaviota has no clue.

Miguel

[Richard Allbert]

.... amazing coordination of knights. It's fascinating to watch.

[Dann Corbit]

I have started a live demo match at http://80.100.28.169/gothic/QN.html , starting from the position:

[d]2n1kn2/3ppp2/1nn2nn1/8/8/8/3PPP2/1Q1QK1Q1 w - -

Currently I am playing Crafty against an engine tuned for this. Seems Crafty gets whipped, as it often loses with the Queens.

I am thinking of holding a tourney with this start position (which is reachable from the FIDE initial position, and thus normal Chess). If people want to subnmit a specially tuned engine, they are welcome!

Black has a bit more material, but also multiple smaller pieces of equal value are usually better than one large piece with the sum value of the smaller pieces.

I guess that in general the knights will win. Is there an engine that can hold its own with the queens?

[Dann Corbit]

I have started a live demo match at http://80.100.28.169/gothic/QN.html , starting from the position:

[d]2n1kn2/3ppp2/1nn2nn1/8/8/8/3PPP2/1Q1QK1Q1 w - -

Currently I am playing Crafty against an engine tuned for this. Seems Crafty gets whipped, as it often loses with the Queens.

I am thinking of holding a tourney with this start position (which is reachable from the FIDE initial position, and thus normal Chess). If people want to subnmit a specially tuned engine, they are welcome!

Black has a bit more material, but also multiple smaller pieces of equal value are usually better than one large piece with the sum value of the smaller pieces.

I guess that in general the knights will win. Is there an engine that can hold its own with the queens?

Never mind the "more material" bit.
A queen should be 3x knight, so white appears ahead on wood. I guess that it is one of those "Material Imbalance" problems.

I suspect that black is favored here, despite the queen heavy opposition

[Karlo Bala]

I have started a live demo match at http://80.100.28.169/gothic/QN.html , starting from the position:

[d]2n1kn2/3ppp2/1nn2nn1/8/8/8/3PPP2/1Q1QK1Q1 w - -

Currently I am playing Crafty against an engine tuned for this. Seems Crafty gets whipped, as it often loses with the Queens.

I am thinking of holding a tourney with this start position (which is reachable from the FIDE initial position, and thus normal Chess). If people want to subnmit a specially tuned engine, they are welcome!

Black has a bit more material, but also multiple smaller pieces of equal value are usually better than one large piece with the sum value of the smaller pieces.

I guess that in general the knights will win. Is there an engine that can hold its own with the queens?

Never mind the "more material" bit.
A queen should be 3x knight, so white appears ahead on wood. I guess that it is one of those "Material Imbalance" problems.

I suspect that black is favored here, despite the queen heavy opposition

It is great example of "redundancy of heavy pieces". Side with queens should win easily. It just need to exchange queen for two knight twice, but neither program except QueeNy doesn't know that.

[michiguel]

I have started a live demo match at http://80.100.28.169/gothic/QN.html , starting from the position:

[d]2n1kn2/3ppp2/1nn2nn1/8/8/8/3PPP2/1Q1QK1Q1 w - -

Currently I am playing Crafty against an engine tuned for this. Seems Crafty gets whipped, as it often loses with the Queens.

I am thinking of holding a tourney with this start position (which is reachable from the FIDE initial position, and thus normal Chess). If people want to subnmit a specially tuned engine, they are welcome!

Black has a bit more material, but also multiple smaller pieces of equal value are usually better than one large piece with the sum value of the smaller pieces.

I guess that in general the knights will win. Is there an engine that can hold its own with the queens?

Never mind the "more material" bit.
A queen should be 3x knight, so white appears ahead on wood. I guess that it is one of those "Material Imbalance" problems.

I suspect that black is favored here, despite the queen heavy opposition

It is great example of "redundancy of heavy pieces". Side with queens should win easily. It just need to exchange queen for two knight twice, but neither program except QueeNy doesn't know that.

Exactly. A piece of cake for a human, but it is too late for a computer when they realize that.

This is similar to have a huge bonus for passed pawns. Why a passed pawn is good? because it could promote, but if the bonus is bigger than the value of the piece it could promote, it will reach the 7th rank and it will stay there forever. Here, the advantage of having queens is that they could trade whenever they want for two pieces, but the engine choose not to do so.

Miguel