E98k [King's Indian: Mar del Plata, 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5]

[Dann Corbit]

For the King's Indian E98k variation, some computer analysis produced quite different results (the plans and scores are different enough to make the variance interesting) we have these two EPD records:

[d]r1bq1rk1/pppnn1bp/3p2p1/3Ppp2/2P1P3/2N1B3/PP2BPPP/R2QNRK1 w - - acd 26; acn 4998691781; acs 1285; bm f3; ce 76; pv f3 a5 Nd3 b6 Qd2 Ba6 b3 Nf6 Rfd1 f4 Bf2 g5 Rdb1 Ng6 Qd1 Qd7 a3 Rfd8 Be1 Rdc8 Ra2 c6 dxc6 Qxc6 Bf2 Bb7 Qd2 g4 Nd5 gxf3 Bxf3 Nxd5 exd5;

r1bq1rk1/pppnn1bp/3p2p1/3Ppp2/2P1P3/2N1B3/PP2BPPP/R2QNRK1 w - - acd 26; acn 7972199699; acs 1515; bm f3; ce 42; pv f3 b6 Nd3 Nf6 Qd2 a5 Bg5 Ba6 b3 Qd7 a3 f4 Kh1 h6 Bh4 Bb7 Bf2 g5 Nb5 Ng6 Kg1;

Now, the scores are quite a bit different and the plans have a difference in the second pv node.

My question is:
Which engine is right, according to theory?

[swami]

[d]r1bq1rk1/pppnn1bp/3p2p1/3Ppp2/2P1P3/2N1B3/PP2BPPP/R2QNRK1 w - - acd 26; acn 4998691781; acs 1285; bm f3; ce 76; pv f3 a5 Nd3 b6 Qd2 Ba6 b3 Nf6 Rfd1 f4 Bf2 g5 Rdb1 Ng6 Qd1 Qd7 a3 Rfd8 Be1 Rdc8 Ra2 c6 dxc6 Qxc6 Bf2 Bb7 Qd2 g4 Nd5 gxf3 Bxf3 Nxd5 exd5;

Black simply shouldn't have considered c6, or Rook manuevres to d8/c8.

This is in conflict with the general rule from Dvoretsky's "Strategic play":
Don't move pawns on the side of the board where you control less space. Instead organize your forces on the other side.

Slowly building up the position on the king side would have worked.

Also, I don't understand the final exd5. cxd5 was clearly better. Maybe the engine will begin to see it differently as it goes further.

[swami]

This is in conflict with the general rule from Dvoretsky's "Strategic play":
Don't move pawns on the side of the board where you control less space. Instead organize your forces on the other side.

(The Dvoretsky rule was clearly right, I checked the analysis now with the engine and evaluation seems to be going down after Black played c6)

Black is left with:

* Weak sqaure on d5
* Backward pawn d6
* Backward pawn b6
* Centre is opened which is in white's favor since attacking now on king side is nearly impossible.

[swami]

r1bq1rk1/pppnn1bp/3p2p1/3Ppp2/2P1P3/2N1B3/PP2BPPP/R2QNRK1 w - - acd 26; acn 7972199699; acs 1515; bm f3; ce 42; pv f3 b6 Nd3 Nf6 Qd2 a5 Bg5 Ba6 b3 Qd7 a3 f4 Kh1 h6 Bh4 Bb7 Bf2 g5 Nb5 Ng6 Kg1;

2nd one is clearly very good for Black.

Exactly the type of idea that is in accordance with general principle.

Instead of Nb5, White should have tried to open up the Queenside/Center with b4 followed by a break on c5. This would have created enough pressure to put end to Black's plans on the King side.

[swami]

Engine #1 has faulty assumptions regarding predicting the moves from opponent. (c6, f5...)

Engine #2 doesn't have any faulty assumption.

Despite this, as white, Engine #1 seems to be more on the correct side (with its plans)

But engine #2 is theoretically correct with Black but doesn't have correct plans with white.

So to conclude...

Engine#1 is better with white.
Engine#2 is better with black.

What are those engines?

[yanquis1972]

g oing by play with black in the kings indian, i would guess the one playing better w/ black is naum, the other rybka. i actually havent tested naum in the KID, but rybka does play the black pieces well. out of curiosity i will let it run in IA in this position for awhile & post results.

[Marc MP]

For the King's Indian E98k variation, some computer analysis produced quite different results (the plans and scores are different enough to make the variance interesting) we have these two EPD records:

[d]r1bq1rk1/pppnn1bp/3p2p1/3Ppp2/2P1P3/2N1B3/PP2BPPP/R2QNRK1 w - - acd 26; acn 4998691781; acs 1285; bm f3; ce 76; pv f3 a5 Nd3 b6 Qd2 Ba6 b3 Nf6 Rfd1 f4 Bf2 g5 Rdb1 Ng6 Qd1 Qd7 a3 Rfd8 Be1 Rdc8 Ra2 c6 dxc6 Qxc6 Bf2 Bb7 Qd2 g4 Nd5 gxf3 Bxf3 Nxd5 exd5;

r1bq1rk1/pppnn1bp/3p2p1/3Ppp2/2P1P3/2N1B3/PP2BPPP/R2QNRK1 w - - acd 26; acn 7972199699; acs 1515; bm f3; ce 42; pv f3 b6 Nd3 Nf6 Qd2 a5 Bg5 Ba6 b3 Qd7 a3 f4 Kh1 h6 Bh4 Bb7 Bf2 g5 Nb5 Ng6 Kg1;

Now, the scores are quite a bit different and the plans have a difference in the second pv node.

My question is:
Which engine is right, according to theory?

Hi Dan,

Could you post the pgn up to the position considered...I might help help a bit if so...

OK: I see it from the title of the thread.

[Ron Murawski]

For the King's Indian E98k variation, some computer analysis produced quite different results (the plans and scores are different enough to make the variance interesting) we have these two EPD records:

[d]r1bq1rk1/pppnn1bp/3p2p1/3Ppp2/2P1P3/2N1B3/PP2BPPP/R2QNRK1 w - - acd 26; acn 4998691781; acs 1285; bm f3; ce 76; pv f3 a5 Nd3 b6 Qd2 Ba6 b3 Nf6 Rfd1 f4 Bf2 g5 Rdb1 Ng6 Qd1 Qd7 a3 Rfd8 Be1 Rdc8 Ra2 c6 dxc6 Qxc6 Bf2 Bb7 Qd2 g4 Nd5 gxf3 Bxf3 Nxd5 exd5;

r1bq1rk1/pppnn1bp/3p2p1/3Ppp2/2P1P3/2N1B3/PP2BPPP/R2QNRK1 w - - acd 26; acn 7972199699; acs 1515; bm f3; ce 42; pv f3 b6 Nd3 Nf6 Qd2 a5 Bg5 Ba6 b3 Qd7 a3 f4 Kh1 h6 Bh4 Bb7 Bf2 g5 Nb5 Ng6 Kg1;

Now, the scores are quite a bit different and the plans have a difference in the second pv node.

My question is:
Which engine is right, according to theory?

According to NCO neither engine is right.

E98

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5

11. f3 f4 12. Bf2 g5 13. a4 Ng6 14. a5 h5 15. Nb5 Nf6 16. Nxa7 Bd7 17. c5 g4 18. c6 {with compensation for the material...}

In the NCO book this can be found on page 539, line 10. Further continuation of this line can be found on page 540, note #47

Hopefully I have not made a transcription error with the above.

Ron

[jdart]

Computers are notorious for not understand the King's Indian. The problem is that to win often requires long-term planning and buildup of pressure. If you don't have the right plan, you can't make progress. If you don't see and react to your opponent's plan in time, you'll lose. There are lots of examples. Here's one where Black wins with a kingside attack:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1045464