Is this position a draw?

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LaurenceChen
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Is this position a draw?

Post by LaurenceChen »

[d] 8/6pk/R4p1p/7P/5PP1/8/p5K1/r7 b - - 0 51

Rook endings are very difficult to play. Can Black win or White can draw by holding the Black King through perpetual checks?
Engines will give evaluate as winning for Black... I cannot see how can this be accomplished.
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beachknight
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Re: Is this position a draw?

Post by beachknight »

Code: Select all

14: 8/6pk/R4p1p/7P/5PP1/8/p5K1/r7 
8/6pk/R4p1p/7P/5PP1/8/p5K1/r7 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Crafty 22.01 cb w32:

51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kg8 54.Kh2 Kf8 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Kf2 Kd8 57.Kg2 Kc8 58.Kf3 
  -+  (-1.70)   Depth: 13   00:00:01  1186kN, tb=101
51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kg8 54.Kh2 Kf8 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Kf2 Kd8 57.Kg2 Kc8 58.Ra6 Kb7 59.Rxf6 
  -+  (-1.53)   Depth: 14   00:00:02  1841kN, tb=199
51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kg8 54.Kh2 Kf8 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Kf2 Kd8 57.Kg2 Kc8 58.Ra6 Kb7 59.Rxf6 
  -+  (-1.53)   Depth: 15   00:00:05  3098kN, tb=607
51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kg8 54.Kh2 Kf8 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Kf2 Kd8 57.Kg2 Kc8 58.Ra6 Kb7 59.Rxf6 
  -+  (-1.93)   Depth: 16   00:00:14  7190kN, tb=1326
51...g5 52.fxg5 fxg5 53.Ra7+ Kg8 54.Kh2 Kf8 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Kh2 Kd8 57.Kg2 Kc8 58.Ra6 Kc7 59.Kh2 Kb7 60.Rxh6 
  -+  (-1.91)   Depth: 16   00:00:14  8421kN, tb=3228
51...g5 52.fxg5 fxg5 53.Ra7+ Kg8 54.Kh2 Kf8 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Kh2 Kd8 57.Kg2 Kc8 58.Kf2 Kb8 59.Ra6 Kb7 60.Rxh6 
  -+  (-1.61)   Depth: 17   00:00:25  12043kN, tb=3338
51...g5 52.fxg5 fxg5 53.Ra7+ Kg8 54.Kh2 Kf8 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Kh2 Kd8 57.Kg2 Kc8 58.Kf2 Kb8 59.Ra6 Kb7 60.Rxh6 
  -+  (-2.01)   Depth: 18   00:00:41  20981kN, tb=7113
51...g5 52.fxg5 fxg5 53.Ra7+ Kg8 54.Kh2 Kf8 55.Kg2 Ke8 56.Kh2 Kd8 57.Kg2 Kc8 58.Kf2 Kb8 59.Ra6 Kb7 60.Rxh6 
  -+  (-3.01)   Depth: 18   00:01:11  45065kN, tb=13557
51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Kh2 Ke8 55.Ra4 Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Kg2 Kc5 58.Ra6 Kc4 59.Ra7 Kb4 
  -+  (-2.98)   Depth: 18   00:01:11  45426kN, tb=27591
51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Kh2 Ke8 55.Ra4 Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Kg2 Kc5 58.Ra6 Kc4 59.Ra3 Kb4 60.Ra6 Kb5 61.Ra7 Kb4 
  -+  (-2.98)   Depth: 19   00:01:36  60322kN, tb=27986
51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Kh2 Ke8 55.Ra4 Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Kg2 Kc5 58.Ra6 Kc4 59.Ra3 Kb4 60.Ra6 Kb5 61.Ra7 Kb4 
  -+  (-2.98)   Depth: 20   00:02:06  82495kN, tb=43351
51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Kh2 Ke8 55.Ra4 Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Kg2 Kc5 58.Ra6 Kb4 59.Kh2 Kb5 60.Ra8 Kc6 61.Ra6+ Kb7 
  -+  (-2.98)   Depth: 21   00:02:58  120mN, tb=67251
51...g5 52.f5 Kg7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Kh2 Ke8 55.Ra4 Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Kg2 Kc5 58.Ra6 Kb4 59.Kh2 Kb5 60.Ra8 Kc6 61.Ra6+ Kd7 
  -+  (-2.98)   Depth: 22   00:04:18  188mN, tb=113617

(, chessengines20 14.02.2010)
hi, merhaba, hallo HT
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beachknight
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Re: Is this position a draw?

Post by beachknight »

Code: Select all

14: 8/6pk/R4p1p/7P/5PP1/8/p5K1/r7
8/6pk/R4p1p/7P/5PP1/8/p5K1/r7 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Crafty 22.09:

51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Kh2 Ke8 54.Kg2 Kd8 55.f5 Ke8 56.Kh2 Kf8 57.Kg2 Kg8 58.Ra8+ Kf7 59.Ra7+ Ke8 
  -+  (-2.36)   Depth: 16/32   00:00:01  5302kN, tb=401
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Kh2 Ke8 54.Kg2 Kd8 55.f5 Ke8 56.Kh2 Kf8 57.Kg2 Kg8 58.Ra8+ Kf7 59.Ra7+ Ke8 
  -+  (-2.76)   Depth: 17/34   00:00:02  13010kN, tb=2210
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Kh2 Ke8 54.Kg2 Kd8 55.f5 Ke8 56.Kh2 Kf8 57.Kg2 Kg8 58.Ra8+ Kf7 59.Ra7+ Ke8 
  -+  (-3.76)   Depth: 17/36   00:00:03  18985kN, tb=2578
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra7+ Kb6 57.Ra8 Kb5 
  -+  (-3.85)   Depth: 17/36   00:00:05  26830kN, tb=2714
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra5 Kb6 
  -+  (-3.85)   Depth: 18/36   00:00:06  32570kN, tb=3131
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra5 Kb6 57.Ra4 Kb5 58.Ra7 Kb4 
  -+  (-3.87)   Depth: 19/38   00:00:09  47700kN, tb=4581
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra5 Kb6 57.Ra4 Kb5 58.Ra7 Kb4 59.Kg2 Kb3 60.Rb7+ Kc2 61.Ra7 Kc3 62.Rc7+ Kd3 63.Rxg7 
  -+  (-3.87)   Depth: 20/39   00:00:13  66374kN, tb=8161
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra5 Kb6 57.Ra4 Kb5 58.Ra7 Kb4 59.Kg2 Kb3 60.Rb7+ Kc2 61.Ra7 Kc3 62.Rc7+ Kd3 
  -+  (-3.87)   Depth: 21/43   00:00:20  97247kN, tb=17955
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra5 Kb6 57.Ra4 Kb5 58.Ra7 Kb4 59.Kg2 Kb3 60.Rb7+ Kc2 61.Ra7 Kc3 62.Rc7+ Kd3 
  -+  (-3.87)   Depth: 22/44   00:00:37  153mN, tb=33491
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra5 Kb6 57.Ra4 Kb5 58.Ra7 Kb4 59.Kg2 Kb3 60.Rb7+ Kc2 61.Ra7 Kc3 62.Rc7+ Kd3 
  -+  (-3.87)   Depth: 23/48   00:01:30  287mN, tb=92584
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra5 Kb6 57.Ra4 Kb5 58.Ra7 Kb4 59.Kg2 Kb3 60.Rb7+ Kc2 61.Ra7 Kc3 62.Rc7+ Kd3 63.Rd7+ Ke4 64.Ra7 Kd4 65.Rxg7 
  -+  (-3.87)   Depth: 24/49   00:03:19  577mN, tb=173981
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Kh2 Ke7 54.Ra6 Kd7 55.f5 Kc7 56.Ra5 Kb6 57.Ra4 Kb5 58.Ra7 Kb4 59.Kg2 Kb3 60.Rb7+ Kc2 61.Ra7 Kc3 62.Rc7+ Kd3 63.Rd7+ Ke4 64.Ra7 Kd4 65.Rd7+ Kc4 66.Rxg7 
  -+  (-3.87)   Depth: 25/54   00:07:20  1335mN, tb=381893

(, chessengines20 14.02.2010)
hi, merhaba, hallo HT
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beachknight
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Re: Is this position a draw?

Post by beachknight »

Code: Select all

14: 8/6pk/R4p1p/7P/5PP1/8/p5K1/r7
8/6pk/R4p1p/7P/5PP1/8/p5K1/r7 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 1.6.3 JA 64bit:

51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Ra8+ Kf7 54.Ra7+ Ke6 55.Ra5 Ke7 56.Ra6 Kd7 57.Ra7+ Kd6 58.Ra8 Kd5 59.Ra5+ Kc6 60.Ra6+ Kb5 61.Ra7 Kc4 62.Ra3 Kd4 63.Ra4+ Kd3 64.Ra3+ Kc4 65.Ra8 Kb3 66.Rb8+ Ka3 67.Ra8+ Kb4 68.Ra7 Kc4 
  -+  (-3.43)   Depth: 23   00:00:01  4656kN
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Ra8+ Kf7 54.Ra7+ Ke6 55.Ra5 Ke7 56.Ra6 Kd7 57.Ra7+ Kd6 58.Ra8 Kd5 59.Ra5+ Kc6 60.Ra6+ Kb5 61.Ra7 Kc4 62.f5 Kc5 63.Ra4 Kb6 64.Ra8 Kc7 65.Ra6 Kd7 66.Kh2 Kc7 67.Kg2 
  -+  (-3.55)   Depth: 24   00:00:01  7160kN
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Ra8+ Kf7 54.Ra7+ Ke6 55.Ra5 Ke7 56.Ra6 Kd7 57.Ra7+ Kd6 58.Ra8 Kd5 59.Ra5+ Kc6 60.Ra6+ Kb5 61.Ra7 Kc4 62.f5 Kc5 63.Ra4 Kb6 64.Ra8 Kc6 65.Ra7 Kd6 66.Ra4 Ke5 67.Ra7 Kd5 68.Rd7+ Kc5 69.Ra7 Kd6 
  -+  (-3.55)   Depth: 25   00:00:02  9999kN
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Ra8+ Kf7 54.Ra7+ Kf8 
  -+  (-3.35 --)   Depth: 26   00:00:02  11179kN
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Ra8+ Kf7 54.Ra7+ Ke8 55.Ra8+ Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Ra8 Kd5 58.Ra5+ Kc4 59.Ra7 Kd4 60.f5 Kc4 61.Rc7+ Kd4 62.Ra7 Kc3 63.Rc7+ Kb3 64.Rb7+ Ka3 65.Ra7+ Kb4 66.Rb7+ Kc5 67.Ra7 Kd4 68.Rd7+ Ke4 69.Ra7 Kf4 70.Ra4+ Ke5 71.Ra5+ Kd4 72.Ra7 
  -+  (-3.55)   Depth: 27   00:00:04  24494kN
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Ra8+ Kf7 54.Ra7+ Ke8 55.Ra8+ Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Ra8 Kd5 58.Ra5+ Kc4 59.Ra7 Kd4 60.f5 Kc3 61.Rc7+ Kb3 62.Rb7+ Ka3 63.Ra7+ Kb4 64.Rb7+ Kc5 65.Ra7 Kd4 66.Rd7+ Ke4 67.Ra7 Kf4 68.Ra4+ Ke5 69.Ra5+ Kd4 70.Ra7 Kc5 71.Ra4 Kd5 72.Ra7 Kc4 73.Rc7+ Kb3 
  -+  (-3.55)   Depth: 28   00:00:06  37002kN
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Ra8+ Kf7 54.Ra7+ Ke8 55.Ra8+ Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Ra8 Kd5 58.Ra5+ Kc4 59.Ra7 Kd4 60.f5 Kc5 61.Ra4 Kd5 62.Ra7 Kc4 63.Rc7+ Kb3 64.Rb7+ Ka3 65.Ra7+ Kb4 66.Rb7+ Kc5 67.Ra7 Kb5 68.Ra8 Kc6 69.Ra7 Kb6 70.Ra8 Kb5 71.Ra7 Kc4 
  -+  (-3.23)   Depth: 29   00:00:11  63275kN
51...Kg8 52.Ra7 Kf8 53.Ra8+ Kf7 54.Ra7+ Ke8 55.Ra8+ Ke7 56.Ra7+ Kd6 57.Ra8 Kd5 58.Ra5+ Kc4 59.Ra7 Kb3 60.Rb7+ Kc3 61.Ra7 Kc4 62.Ra8 Kb3 63.Rb8+ Kc3 64.Rc8+ Kb2 65.Rb8+ Ka3 66.Ra8+ Kb4 67.Rb8+ Ka4 68.Ra8+ Kb5 69.Ra7 Kb4 70.Ra8 f5 71.gxf5 Kb3 72.Rb8+ Kc3 73.Ra8 Kb3 
  -+  (-3.31)   Depth: 30   00:00:19  108mN
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Ra8+ Kf7 
  -+  (-2.82 --)   Depth: 31   00:00:46  271mN
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Ra8+ Ke7 55.Ra7+ Kd6 56.Ra6+ Kd5 57.f5 Kc4 58.Ra8 Kb3 59.Rb8+ Kc3 60.Rc8+ Kd4 61.Rd8+ Ke4 62.Ra8 Kd3 63.Rd8+ Kc2 64.Rc8+ Kb2 65.Rb8+ Ka3 66.Ra8+ Kb4 67.Rb8+ Kc5 68.Rc8+ Kd5 69.Rd8+ Ke5 70.Ra8 Ke4 71.Ra7 Kd3 72.Ra4 Kc3 73.Ra7 Kb3 74.Rb7+ Kc2 75.Ra7 Kc3 76.Rxg7 Rg1+ 77.Kxg1 
  -+  (-3.03)   Depth: 32   00:01:14  430mN
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Ra8+ Ke7 55.Ra7+ Kd6 56.Ra6+ Kd5 57.f5 Kc4 58.Ra8 Kb3 59.Rb8+ Kc3 60.Rc8+ Kd4 61.Rd8+ Ke4 62.Ra8 Kd3 63.Rd8+ Kc2 64.Rc8+ Kb2 65.Rb8+ Ka3 66.Ra8+ Kb4 67.Rb8+ Kc5 68.Ra8 Kc4 69.Ra7 Kb3 70.Rb7+ Ka4 71.Ra7+ Kb5 72.Ra8 Kb6 73.Ra4 Kc6 74.Ra5 Kd6 75.Ra7 Ke5 76.Kf2 Rh1 
  -+  (-3.03)   Depth: 33   00:02:40  921mN
51...Kg8 52.Ra8+ Kf7 53.Ra7+ Kf8 54.Ra8+ Ke7 55.Ra7+ Kd6 56.Ra6+ Kd5 57.f5 Kc4 58.Ra8 Kb3 59.Rb8+ Kc3 60.Rc8+ Kd2 61.Ra8 Kc2 62.Ra7 Kc3 63.Rc7+ Kd3 64.Rd7+ Ke4 65.Ra7 Kf4 66.Ra4+ Kg5 67.Kh2 Rf1 68.Rxa2 Kxg4 69.Rg2+ Kxh5 70.Rxg7 Rxf5 71.Ra7 Kg4 72.Kg2 h5 73.Ra4+ Kg5 74.Ra8 Rd5 75.Rg8+ Kf4 76.Rb8 Rg5+ 77.Kf2 Rf5 78.Rb4+ Kg5+ 79.Ke3 h4 80.Rb1 Ra5 81.Rg1+ Kf5 82.Rf1+ Ke5 83.Ke2 
  -+  (-3.11)   Depth: 34   00:05:25  1866mN

(, chessengines20 14.02.2010)
hi, merhaba, hallo HT
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beachknight
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Re: Is this position a draw?

Post by beachknight »

LaurenceChen wrote:[d] 8/6pk/R4p1p/7P/5PP1/8/p5K1/r7 b - - 0 51

Rook endings are very difficult to play. Can Black win or White can draw by holding the Black King through perpetual checks?
Engines will give evaluate as winning for Black... I cannot see how can this be accomplished.
Short time analysis with 5 minutes does not help further.
I'll do an overnight analysis with some hours later.
hi, merhaba, hallo HT
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metax
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Re: Is this position a draw?

Post by metax »

I'd consider this as a draw because black simply cannot achieve anything. White does not even have to give a perpetual check. He can simply keep the kingside closed (this works because Black can't enforce ...g6, on ...g5 White can always play f5, and ...f5 exf5 gains nothing) and the pawn a2 is worth nothing.
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