ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

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CRoberson
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ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by CRoberson »

I was hoping that the group would decide this, but it looks like perpetual indecision. I will eventually have to make a decision as
somebody will try to enter Ippo, Robbo or such in an ACCA event.

The ACCA does not allow clones in any of the competitions. That means clones of any kind (legal or illegal). So, even Toga is not allowed.
Also, the ACCA requires the entrant to name the author and various other info about the entrant including team members.

After reading the Ippo web page, I see this statement "Decembristas will continue being a secret society, whose population could as great
number as the Russia Mother.". Based on this alone, such an entrant would be disqualified.

I've read through some of the Ippo code (mostly the eval) and talk about obfuscation. There are typically only two reasons for that. First,
you are a commercial developer and you want to make it as hard as possible for somebody to copy/reverse engineer your code. Secondly,
you are cloning another person's code and you are trying to hide it. Obviously, the first reason is not the case. That brings us to the second reason.
There isn't any reason to obfuscate your code and release it freely in hopes that all would learn from it. If your plan is for others to learn,
then you make your code as clear as possible. That leaves me only with they are cloning.

Looking at their future plans, I see this:

Code: Select all

 First Values with IvanHoe

    * Clean up the code and put it more comments for general understanding.
    * Add multipv and searchmoves and ponder in the UCI parsing options.
    * Introduce a testing system for making further advances.
          o Super fast testing (game in 3 seconds?) for evaluation changes.
    * Support the Windows environment more fully.
          o Initial aim is especially for RobboBases to work in it.
    * Add many extra utilities, more for developers than users.
          o Structure the evaluation into segments.
                + Allow printing of eval components as with Crafty.
          o Put in perft and move verifiers, and search tracers, and more.
                + A wild idea, GUI support for search tree dumps?
                + A saner idea, good statistics models to churn thru search tree dumps.
          o Factually, a whole DEBUG mode can be useful.
Several of those things are necessary to create a program at their declared strength without cloning. So, the author(s) will have to
defend their code. In order to do that, you have to admit who you are.

What poorly thought through idea. If you don't claim your code and will not admit who you are, then anybody could claim it and
make it commercial. What a slap in the face that will be.

So, the code and info on the web pages suggests that it is a clone. Also, there is nothing on the web pages that states it is an original
work. Some of the experiences of people trying to use it suggest it is a partial clone. Again I state: the author(s) will have to defend their code.

I have reviewed several chess programs over the last 12 years. It is easy to spot an original work. Ippo doesn't show any signs of it being an original work.

So, why is partial cloning an issue. Lets say you only clone the eval and the search. Well, that is like somebody publishing their
memoirs that covers them through the age of 60 or so, but they are only 21. So, they copied the rest from another book. Is that
wrong/illegal? A girl from India tried that just a few years ago and yes, it is illegal.

Clone or not: if you are an author/researcher that will not name yourself or your team members then you may not enter
ACCA events and that has been a rule for years.
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by Harvey Williamson »

Good post Charles. I suppose it begs the question will Stockfish be allowed if Toga is not? I certainly agree that both Stocfish and Glaurung can not play.
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Eelco de Groot
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Harvey did you mean that Glaurung and Stockfish can not both enter? That case seems clear. Glaurung has been superseded by Stockfish as the official version that Tord is co-authoring wih Joona and Marco so I don't think any of them will want to enter Glaurung. This is completely different from the Fruit, Toga case

I am not assuming that you want to ban every new engine that has appeared since the Ippolit sources became "loose". Well, I think we are just past the point where it makes any sense discouraging or "banning" discussion of the code or buying time. Code has been available for what, nine months or something?

Participation in tournaments is another matter, if the authors of Ippolit/Robbolito in this case would be accused of doing more than just disassembling code for instance. Disassembly by itself can not be grounds for exclusion. Including literal code or exact data structures I think would be considered plagiarism, incorporating ideas I think not. Making disassembled code public could be, I think, ground for exclusion, depending on the tournament regulations Charles sets up? This is just a first reaction I had to your mentioning Stockfish, as I don't see Charles mentioning Stockfish anywhere.

Regards,
Eelco
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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Graham Banks
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by Graham Banks »

Harvey Williamson wrote:Good post Charles. I suppose it begs the question will Stockfish be allowed if Toga is not? I certainly agree that both Stocfish and Glaurung can not play.
Sorry to hijack Charles' thread, but I'd like to hear what your viewpoint is on the Ippo/Robbo issue. I did ask in the other thread, but I'm not sure that you saw.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by Harvey Williamson »

Graham Banks wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:Good post Charles. I suppose it begs the question will Stockfish be allowed if Toga is not? I certainly agree that both Stocfish and Glaurung can not play.
Sorry to hijack Charles' thread, but I'd like to hear what your viewpoint is on the Ippo/Robbo issue. I did ask in the other thread, but I'm not sure that you saw.

Cheers,
Graham.
Ask your brother he seems to know - as the post you responded to here yesterday has been copied to the Rybka forum:
Ray (***) Date 2010-01-05 22:48
The usual Harvey Williamson anti-Rybka pot stirring
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Graham Banks
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by Graham Banks »

Harvey Williamson wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:Good post Charles. I suppose it begs the question will Stockfish be allowed if Toga is not? I certainly agree that both Stocfish and Glaurung can not play.
Sorry to hijack Charles' thread, but I'd like to hear what your viewpoint is on the Ippo/Robbo issue. I did ask in the other thread, but I'm not sure that you saw.

Cheers,
Graham.
Ask your brother he seems to know - as the post you responded to here yesterday has been copied to the Rybka forum:
Ray (***) Date 2010-01-05 22:48
The usual Harvey Williamson anti-Rybka pot stirring
A really mature answer. Thanks.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by Harvey Williamson »

Graham Banks wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:Good post Charles. I suppose it begs the question will Stockfish be allowed if Toga is not? I certainly agree that both Stocfish and Glaurung can not play.
Sorry to hijack Charles' thread, but I'd like to hear what your viewpoint is on the Ippo/Robbo issue. I did ask in the other thread, but I'm not sure that you saw.

Cheers,
Graham.
Ask your brother he seems to know - as the post you responded to here yesterday has been copied to the Rybka forum:
Ray (***) Date 2010-01-05 22:48
The usual Harvey Williamson anti-Rybka pot stirring
A really mature answer. Thanks.
You are welcome.
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Peter Skinner
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by Peter Skinner »

Hi Charles,

I was drafting something very close to what you stated here in regards to the CCT tournaments.

For the record, Ippolit, Robbolito, or for that matter Itsafreakingreversedengineeredchessprogramofsomesortolito, will not be allowed in the CCT Tournaments.

So for all those emailing if they can enter those programs in the CCT, or asking if they can operate them in the CCT, the answer is a simple no.

If it is a clone, then so be it. If it isn't, no one has claimed to be the original author. On those two points alone, it doesn't qualify to enter.

Nuff said :)

Peter Skinner
CCT Tournament Director
I was kicked out of Chapters because I moved all the Bibles to the fiction section.
Dayffd
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by Dayffd »

This seems to be about the most coherent and logical explanation concerning whether these engines are probable clones I have read on this forum. This is sufficient for me to not include these engines in my "stable" of engines. Thank you for your post, sir.
David S.
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hgm
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Re: ACCA stance on Ippo, Robbo and such

Post by hgm »

I don't think the Toga vs. Fruit issue is any different from the Stockfish vs. Glaurung issue. You cannot have both, so you should allow the strongest to participate.