Is Toga still weaker than Fruit?

[Jouni]

Sorry, but I think there has not been much/any progress in last 2 years.
I played 2*80 blitz games between Fruit - Toga (10 moves book default settings).




1 Fruit 05/11/03 ½½1½1½1½1½½½½0100½1½1½½½½½½10½0½½½1½½½1½10½0011½½½½1½½½½½0½1½1½½½01½½½½000½½111½ 43.5/80
2 Toga II 1.3x4a ½½0½0½0½0½½½½1011½0½0½½½½½½01½1½½½0½½½0½01½1100½½½½0½½½½½1½0½0½½½10½½½½111½½000½ 36.5/80


1 Fruit 05/11/03 1½1½½11½½01½½½½½½1011½1½½010010½111½1001½½½1½½½½000½101½01½110½1½½½1½½11½0½½1½½0 45.5/80
2 Toga II 1.3x4b 0½0½½00½½10½½½½½½0100½0½½101101½000½0110½½½0½½½½111½010½10½001½0½½½0½½00½1½½0½½1 34.5/80

Jouni

[Ryan Benitez]

A few things:
A) The setting used in the release version of Fruit 05/11/03 where not the settings used as the date 05/11/03. Tuning was done beyond this point that brought significant gain.
B) I don't think Fruit vs. other versions of Fruit matches prove as much as people might think.
C) Toga's biggest feat was adding options for the end user such as multi PV. FRC would be a nice next step.
D) Did anyone really think someone else could understand Fruit as well as Fabien? Toga took a left turn where Fruit took a right turn. I did not understand how this mattered from a practical standpoint until after the release version of Fruit 05/11/03 was made public.

[Graham Banks]

A few things:
A) The setting used in the release version of Fruit 05/11/03 where not the settings used as the date 05/11/03. Tuning was done beyond this point that brought significant gain.
B) I don't think Fruit vs. other versions of Fruit matches prove as much as people might think.
C) Toga's biggest feat was adding options for the end user such as multi PV. FRC would be a nice next step.
D) Did anyone really think someone else could understand Fruit as well as Fabien? Toga took a left turn where Fruit took a right turn. I did not understand how this mattered from a practical standpoint until after the release version of Fruit 05/11/03 was made public.

Hi Ryan,

could you please tell me which version is actually the "latest" version - 2.3.1 or 051103?

Regards, Graham.

[Ryan Benitez]

The Fruit 2.3.1 version is newer but not as well tuned. It is a few minor bug fixes from Fruit 2.3. At the time I released Fruit 2.3 I had not touched at looked at the Fruit code for a few months and decided to release the last beta as Fruit 2.3 along with many UCI options so that people could tune the engine and share improved settings amongst each other. I feel my decision was a poor one now in that I misjudged the interest in tuning and sharing settings. A precedence of engines being already well tuned and default being the best settings has been set and overall I think that is a good one for most users. The changes in Fruit 05/11/03 from the date 05/11/03 are settings changes done by Joachim that I would estimate to be worth about 45-50 elo. It is hard to put a date on this because it is a change of settings not code. The only code changed was the UCI settings in option.cpp. I assume the reason the version number was not changed from Fruit 05/11/03 is because it would be even more confusing to change it. I hope my explanation makes things less confusing than more so.

Ryan

[Graham Banks]

The Fruit 2.3.1 version is newer but not as well tuned. It is a few minor bug fixes from Fruit 2.3. At the time I released Fruit 2.3 I had not touched at looked at the Fruit code for a few months and decided to release the last beta as Fruit 2.3 along with many UCI options so that people could tune the engine and share improved settings amongst each other. I feel my decision was a poor one now in that I misjudged the interest in tuning and sharing settings. A precedence of engines being already well tuned and default being the best settings has been set and overall I think that is a good one for most users. The changes in Fruit 05/11/03 from the date 05/11/03 are settings changes done by Joachim that I would estimate to be worth about 45-50 elo. It is hard to put a date on this because it is a change of settings not code. The only code changed was the UCI settings in option.cpp. I assume the reason the version number was not changed from Fruit 05/11/03 is because it would be even more confusing to change it. I hope my explanation makes things less confusing than more so.

Ryan

Thanks for the clarification Ryan.

Fruit 051103 does seem stronger than Fruit 2.3.1, but the latter sure has an attractive playing style.

Please give my regards to Fabien.
He's a magnificent programmer and I'm looking forward to the release of Chess64 (although I hope that there's going to be a 32-bit version also - if the name is implying anything).

Regards, Graham.

[Uri Blass]

I suspect that things may be dependent on time control.

Toga II 1.3.1 seems to be better than all fruits in the ccrl 40/40 list

CEGT has worse result for TogaII1.3.1 but their result also support the conjecture that toga1.3.1 is relatively better at long time control.

Based on CEGT toga1.3.1beta 1 has perfomance of 2820 after scoring 176/376
when Toga1.3.4 with EGBB has performance of 2824.8 after scoring
137.5/281

both are better than toga1.2.1 that has rating of 2801 but weaker than Fruit2.3 Lac with rating of 2831

Fruit 05/11/03 has rating of 2822 that is similiar to both toga's.

Note that based on CEGT toga1.3.1 is 19 elo improvement relative to 1.2.1a when the improvement in blitz based on ccrl is smaller and I think that it may be interesting if the CEGT also test toga1.3.1 at 120/40.

Uri

[M ANSARI]

What is Chess 64 ... is it a new version of Fruit under developent?

[Michael Sherwin]

What is Chess 64 ... is it a new version of Fruit under developent?

My pure guess is that it will be a bitboard engine and it will be faster than Fruit.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

What is Chess 64 ... is it a new version of Fruit under developent?

Hala Majd,
Chess64 is the new chess program over which Fabien is working and it will be commercial,that's why by the way all the Fruit versions were given for free as it's development has practically stoped

[Eelco de Groot]

What is Chess 64 ... is it a new version of Fruit under developent?

Hala Majd,

Chess64 is the new chess program over which Fabien is working and it will be commercial,that's why by the way all the Fruit versions were given for free as it's development has practically stoped

Hello Dr. Wael, it is easy to guess that Chess 64 will be bitboard based and probably will be capable of using more processors, but it is news to me that it will be a commercial engine. Is this all just pure speculation or do you know more than the rest of us ?

Regards, Eelco