Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
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lkaufman
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Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
KomodoChess has released Dragon 2.6.1 at KomodoChess.com. It is primarily a bug-fix version, needed because in 2.6 setting Auto-Skill disabled the Elo settings, making Auto-Skill useless. Also, in response to many requests, we changed the UCI options for Elo and LimitStrength to use the underscore, so that they may be used more easily on some GUIs. Additionally, some of the internal settings for the Elo settings have been revised based on new information; below 1650 they were made a bit weaker, above 1650 a bit stronger. There is no change in the net used; some tiny speedups were included and one small internal parameter change; we estimate the net effect is a boost of about two elo. Obviously there is no need for the testers to retest for this. This version is free for anyone who received version 2.6 from us, just download it, and any new purchasers will get this version.
Komodo rules!
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
I have tested a few of CCRL engines against Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 and you have done an excellent job in equalizing their strength, but the question is if the rating of CCRL engines are close to Human Fide at T/C of 10 Minutes ? Here is an interesting games out of the 100 games that I matched against Snowy and setting the UCI Elo to 2000. I decided to test it under 10 Minutes to get a feel of it, but in Chess.com most humans prefer to challenge engines either at T/C of 3 minutes or 3/2 Blitz, anything greater than those T/C will give some humans a chance to cheat using other engines and after reaching 30 to 40 moves play on their own when they have an advantage. Let say they play Blitz in 5/5 minutes and use Stockfish after reaching 38 moves they get a great advantage, they can easily play the rest of the game against their own Elo Strength and beat Komodo Dragon.lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:09 pm KomodoChess has released Dragon 2.6.1 at KomodoChess.com. It is primarily a bug-fix version, needed because in 2.6 setting Auto-Skill disabled the Elo settings, making Auto-Skill useless. Also, in response to many requests, we changed the UCI options for Elo and LimitStrength to use the underscore, so that they may be used more easily on some GUIs. Additionally, some of the internal settings for the Elo settings have been revised based on new information; below 1650 they were made a bit weaker, above 1650 a bit stronger. There is no change in the net used; some tiny speedups were included and one small internal parameter change; we estimate the net effect is a boost of about two elo. Obviously there is no need for the testers to retest for this. This version is free for anyone who received version 2.6 from us, just download it, and any new purchasers will get this version.
Last edited by Chessqueen on Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lkaufman
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
The elo settings on Dragon are for people to use on their own computers, so I don't need to be concerned about cheating, this isn't for online bots. The chess.com bots are Komodo-based but are pre-NNUE and scaled differently. The ratings given on Dragon 2.6.1 are intended to match humans at 15' + 10"; we could always change that to some faster tc in the future if enough people request that. Probably matching dragon levels vs. CCRL engines in the 2000 ballpark is reasonable in blitz; ccrl engines rated 2000 maybe play blitz about like humans rated 2000 play rapid. So far we've had four serious test games between dragon 2.6.1 Elo settings and titled human players (2 with me, 2 with my son Ray) at 15' + 10" with elo set to match human FIDE rating; result is two wins for Dragon, one win for human (me), and one draw. One of the two Dragon wins was closely fought and should have ended in a draw. So it does appear that the elo settings are at least not way off. But if we tried to play blitz against those same elo levels we would be crushed. I think I have underestimated how much better humans play Rapid than they play blitz.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:22 pmI have tested a few of CCRL engines against Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 and you have done an excellent job in equalizing their strength, but the question is if the rating of CCRL engines are close to Human Fide at T/C of 10 Minutes ? Here is an interesting games out of the 100 games that I matched against Snowy and setting the UCI Elo to 2000. I decided to test it under 10 Minutes to get a feel of it, but in Chess.com most humans prefer to challenge engines either at T/C of 3 minutes or 3/2 Blitz, anything greater than those T/C will give some humans a chance to cheat using other engines and after reaching 50 to 60 moves play on their own when they have an advantage.lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:09 pm KomodoChess has released Dragon 2.6.1 at KomodoChess.com. It is primarily a bug-fix version, needed because in 2.6 setting Auto-Skill disabled the Elo settings, making Auto-Skill useless. Also, in response to many requests, we changed the UCI options for Elo and LimitStrength to use the underscore, so that they may be used more easily on some GUIs. Additionally, some of the internal settings for the Elo settings have been revised based on new information; below 1650 they were made a bit weaker, above 1650 a bit stronger. There is no change in the net used; some tiny speedups were included and one small internal parameter change; we estimate the net effect is a boost of about two elo. Obviously there is no need for the testers to retest for this. This version is free for anyone who received version 2.6 from us, just download it, and any new purchasers will get this version.
Komodo rules!
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 at T/C of 30 seconds total for the entire game become unbeatable, but at 2 minutes and above Cicada is too stoong for the UCI_Elo set at 1600 for Komodo Dragon 2.6.1., but against any human rated around 1600 Fide at T/C 5/5 it would be just perfect.
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Cornfed
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
Just an observation. I don't know anything about Cicada, but 12...Ke7?? - no human would (and no computer should) ever think to make that kind of move (or likely several others in the game, but that's the obvious one), even at 1550 or 1600 elo...or 1200 ( 4...c6. 5...c5. maybe...). But again, this must be the programmers burden when trying to simulate a rating level for 'bad human play'. How the heck does one realistically it? Missing some pretty obvious, sure, poor positional play, sure...but moves like 12...Ke7? I'm not even sure one should test against an engine that does that.
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lkaufman
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
Note that this "Cicada" engine is not a crippled engine trying to simulate bad human play, but the full strength engine; it is rated 1537 on CCRL Rapid.Cornfed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:52 pm Just an observation. I don't know anything about Cicada, but 12...Ke7?? - no human would (and no computer should) ever think to make that kind of move (or likely several others in the game, but that's the obvious one), even at 1550 or 1600 elo...or 1200 ( 4...c6. 5...c5. maybe...). But again, this must be the programmers burden when trying to simulate a rating level for 'bad human play'. How the heck does one realistically it? Missing some pretty obvious, sure, poor positional play, sure...but moves like 12...Ke7? I'm not even sure one should test against an engine that does that.
Komodo rules!
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Cornfed
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
lkaufman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:50 pmNote that this "Cicada" engine is not a crippled engine trying to simulate bad human play, but the full strength engine; it is rated 1537 on CCRL Rapid.Cornfed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:52 pm Just an observation. I don't know anything about Cicada, but 12...Ke7?? - no human would (and no computer should) ever think to make that kind of move (or likely several others in the game, but that's the obvious one), even at 1550 or 1600 elo...or 1200 ( 4...c6. 5...c5. maybe...). But again, this must be the programmers burden when trying to simulate a rating level for 'bad human play'. How the heck does one realistically it? Missing some pretty obvious, sure, poor positional play, sure...but moves like 12...Ke7? I'm not even sure one should test against an engine that does that.
A really horrible one if among the many moves available to it, it plays an unprovoked 12...Ke7. With it making moves like that, do you think results from such an engine as this is in any meaningful way valuable in trying to correlate Dragon's play/elo to a human with a similar rating? It strikes me that the overwhelming majority of errors by a human with that rating would be of a tactical nature or poor positional understanding...not totally crazy king moves which hands the opponent a nice edge on a silver platter.
I mean, I guess one could make the argument that it doesn't matter and 'whatever the error' Dragon still has to perform against it and if it can only score 50% then 'set whatever tweaks you have made' to be 'that level elo'. The approach just give me pause...but maybe I'm not seeing a bigger picture.
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lkaufman
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
Of course it is much better to test Dragon elo settings against humans, and we are gradually accumulating data, although most people don't test it under the specified 15' +10" serious game format. Some weaker engines are at least reasonably human-like in their play, others are not. In any case engines with CCRL ratings below master level will absolutely clobber humans of the same FIDE rating in blitz or even Rapid games, that's quite clear now. I know it's hard to believe that an engine that would play ...Ke7 there would destroy a 1550 FIDE human in Rapid, but it would. Tactics are too dominant in chess. "Cicada" playing blitz might be even with a 1550 human playing Rapid, but we don't know that. The only engine in that human level ballpark for which I have a lot of human data (from LiChess) is Safrad 2.2, which performed at the equivalent of FIDE 1527 against humans at Rapid (10' + 5" to 15' + 10" or equiv.); FIDE 1723 at slow blitz (about 5' + 3"), and at FIDE 1922 at 3' + 0". But it is only rated 1006 CCRL blitz. I think this is a good engine to use for such tests of Dragon elo settings, since we know how it performs vs. humans and since it at least is not outrageously silly in its play.Cornfed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:10 pmlkaufman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:50 pmNote that this "Cicada" engine is not a crippled engine trying to simulate bad human play, but the full strength engine; it is rated 1537 on CCRL Rapid.Cornfed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:52 pm Just an observation. I don't know anything about Cicada, but 12...Ke7?? - no human would (and no computer should) ever think to make that kind of move (or likely several others in the game, but that's the obvious one), even at 1550 or 1600 elo...or 1200 ( 4...c6. 5...c5. maybe...). But again, this must be the programmers burden when trying to simulate a rating level for 'bad human play'. How the heck does one realistically it? Missing some pretty obvious, sure, poor positional play, sure...but moves like 12...Ke7? I'm not even sure one should test against an engine that does that.
With it making moves like that, do you think results from such an engine as this is in any meaningful way valuable in trying to correlate Dragon's play/elo to a human with a similar rating? It strikes me that the overwhelming majority of errors by a human with that rating would be of a tactical nature or poor positional understanding...not totally crazy king moves which hands the opponent a nice edge on a silver platter.
I mean, I guess one could make the argument that it doesn't matter and 'whatever the error' Dragon still has to perform against it and if it can only score 50% then 'set whatever tweaks you have made' to be 'that level elo'. The approach just give me pause...but maybe I'm not seeing a bigger picture.
Komodo rules!
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
You forgot that Cicada only made that horrible move on T/C of 30 seconds for the entire game, if you allow Cicada at least 2 minutes for the entire game it would NOT make that horrible move and it would constantly beat Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 set at CI Elo of 1600. Try it yourself, and match them.Cornfed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:52 pm Just an observation. I don't know anything about Cicada, but 12...Ke7?? - no human would (and no computer should) ever think to make that kind of move (or likely several others in the game, but that's the obvious one), even at 1550 or 1600 elo...or 1200 ( 4...c6. 5...c5. maybe...). But again, this must be the programmers burden when trying to simulate a rating level for 'bad human play'. How the heck does one realistically it? Missing some pretty obvious, sure, poor positional play, sure...but moves like 12...Ke7? I'm not even sure one should test against an engine that does that.
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 released
Cicada still play weak moves at T/C game in 1 minute but look at the result. Cicada which is rated only 1537 by CCRL can beat 75% of human Fide rated below 1600 at T/C of 1 minute per game.