I was using my i7 3.40 Ghz at [TimeControl "900+10"] for bothlkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:20 pmYou don't state the time controls, was this with the simulated match conditions (3' + 2" for Dragon, 15' + 10" for Gaviota)? If so, then I agree, Gaviota 0.84 32 bit is stronger in Rapid than a 2500 human GM. My latest studies suggest the following conversion formula for estimating human FIDE elo in [TimeControl "900+10"] play from CCRL Rapid ratings: human FIDE = 2/3 (CCRL) + 1000. So with Gaviota at 2570 CCRL Rapid, this gives 2713 as the estimated human FIDE rating that should be needed to score 50% vs. Gaviota 0.84 32 bit on one core of modern i7 at Rapid. That's why I suggested having both engines play with 3' + 2"; that would reduce the estimated strength of Gaviota to a level much closer to human 2500 (still above it, but not way above it). Regarding hardware, my latest simulations suggest that using more than 16 threads for this type of match is actually counterproductive, so I'll probably limit Dragon to 16 threads unless I get new data. Regarding opening, it is well known that with b1 missing, 1e4 is dubious due to 1...d5! It's very difficult for White to get any opening advantage (ignoring the missing piece) when giving b1 odds. Human GMs will at least work out the best initial 3 or 4 moves against reasonable opening tries by White at knight odds, that's one reason they have a better chance than similar strength engines with no book.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:22 pmChessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:49 pmI do NOT believe that GM Perelshteyn can play as good as Gaviota version 0.84 with a Knight Odds both engines using the same CPU, but with Mr. Kaufman super 32 core Threadripper, there is more reason to believe that he will Not stand a chance, anyway, here is the 1st first game. I know that 1.d4 is NOT a good opening for White with the Knight b1 missing, I will see what happen with 1.e4.... Komodo Dragon 2.5x should at least get a draw opening with 1.e4lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:14 pmI just downloaded the engine and left default settings unchanged, so I assume that means no Tablebases. Probably this is best for the purpose, since humans don't use tablebases.
Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
This game was using TC [TimeControl "180+2"] = (3' + 2"
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Chessqueen
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lkaufman
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
Since sample size of 2 or 3 games are a bit unreliable, I ran a thousand game match at 3' + 2" between latest Dragon dev. (using my own settings) and Gaviota 0.84 32 bit at knight odds (using cutechess GUI, which I really like), using the ChrisW knight odds opening book (middle one thousand positions). Result was +510 -394 =96, so Dragon won by 40.5 elo. But in real knight odds with humans, the human will choose only good defenses, not randomized ones, so this overstates (for Dragon) what would happen if we give Black a short but good opening book. Maybe in that case the result would come out about even vs. Gaviota. Gaviota at 3' +2" is still stronger than a 2500 GM playing Rapid I think, but knowing that you are playing a much stronger opponent and that it is a handicap game is very important information, so my guess is that Eugene is the favorite, but if we can improve on the 33% vs. GM Wirig I won't feel bad if we lose the match.
Komodo rules!
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:28 pmYes indeed they are very unreliable, but I was curious to find out if the 32 bit version of Gaviota was better with Knight Odds than the 64 bit version and I decided to test it against Dragon, next game will be with the b1 Knight missing, and the 2nd game in progress indicate that the 64bit version is play better with Knight Odds, but of course I only tested it in two gamesChessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:39 pm
Since sample size of 2 or 3 games are a bit unreliable, I ran a thousand game match at 3' + 2" between latest Dragon dev. (using my own settings) and Gaviota 0.84 32 bit at knight odds (using cutechess GUI, which I really like), using the ChrisW knight odds opening book (middle one thousand positions). Result was +510 -394 =96, so Dragon won by 40.5 elo. But in real knight odds with humans, the human will choose only good defenses, not randomized ones, so this overstates (for Dragon) what would happen if we give Black a short but good opening book. Maybe in that case the result would come out about even vs. Gaviota. Gaviota at 3' +2" is still stronger than a 2500 GM playing Rapid I think, but knowing that you are playing a much stronger opponent and that it is a handicap game is very important information, so my guess is that Eugene is the favorite, but if we can improve on the 33% vs. GM Wirig I won't feel bad if we lose the match.
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
These two engines Gaviotas 0.84 32 bits and 64 bits are so close with Knight Odds Against Dragon that in order to know for certain we really need at least 1000 games with both 32 bits and 64 bits, but i believe that the 64 bits version plays better than the 32 bits
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
I have never seen any GM playing like Komodo a complete open position without castling its King and going after its opponent
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
You don't state the time controls, was this with the simulated match conditions (3' + 2" for Dragon, 15' + 10" for Gaviota)? If so, then I agree, Gaviota 0.84 32 bit is stronger in Rapid than a 2500 human GM. My latest studies suggest the following conversion formula for estimating human FIDE elo in Rapid (15' + 10") play from CCRL Rapid ratings: human FIDE = 2/3 (CCRL) + 1000. So with Gaviota at 2570 CCRL Rapid, this gives 2713 as the estimated human FIDE rating that should be needed to score 50% vs. Gaviota 0.84 32 bit on one core of modern i7 at Rapid. That's why I suggested having both engines play with 3' + 2"; that would reduce the estimated strength of Gaviota to a level much closer to human 2500 (still above it, but not way above it). Regarding hardware, my latest simulations suggest that using more than 16 threads for this type of match is actually counterproductive, so I'll probably limit Dragon to 16 threads unless I get new data. Regarding opening, it is well known that with b1 missing, 1e4 is dubious due to 1...d5! It's very difficult for White to get any opening advantage (ignoring the missing piece) when giving b1 odds. Human GMs will at least work out the best initial 3 or 4 moves against reasonable opening tries by White at knight odds, that's one reason they have a better chance than similar strength engines with no book.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:47 am I have never seen any GM playing like Komodo a complete open position without castling its King and going after its opponent
Komodo rules!
The time control was 3'+2" for the last 4 games. Mr. Kaufman, I have a question, is a Knight Plus a pawn a bigger handicap than a Rook Odds, With Komodo Dragon playing with White having the first move. ?
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Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
This is what I meant, I did NOT let it finish, but it seems to be that they are equal handicapsChessqueen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:22 pmYou don't state the time controls, was this with the simulated match conditions (3' + 2" for Dragon, 15' + 10" for Gaviota)? If so, then I agree, Gaviota 0.84 32 bit is stronger in Rapid than a 2500 human GM. My latest studies suggest the following conversion formula for estimating human FIDE elo in Rapid (15' + 10") play from CCRL Rapid ratings: human FIDE = 2/3 (CCRL) + 1000. So with Gaviota at 2570 CCRL Rapid, this gives 2713 as the estimated human FIDE rating that should be needed to score 50% vs. Gaviota 0.84 32 bit on one core of modern i7 at Rapid. That's why I suggested having both engines play with 3' + 2"; that would reduce the estimated strength of Gaviota to a level much closer to human 2500 (still above it, but not way above it). Regarding hardware, my latest simulations suggest that using more than 16 threads for this type of match is actually counterproductive, so I'll probably limit Dragon to 16 threads unless I get new data. Regarding opening, it is well known that with b1 missing, 1e4 is dubious due to 1...d5! It's very difficult for White to get any opening advantage (ignoring the missing piece) when giving b1 odds. Human GMs will at least work out the best initial 3 or 4 moves against reasonable opening tries by White at knight odds, that's one reason they have a better chance than similar strength engines with no book.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:47 am I have never seen any GM playing like Komodo a complete open position without castling its King and going after its opponent
Komodo rules!
The time control was 3'+2" for the last 4 games. Mr. Kaufman, I have a question, is a Knight Plus a pawn a bigger handicap than a Rook Odds, With Komodo Dragon playing with White having the first move. ?
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lkaufman
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs. GM Perelshteyn, knight odds match.
The "f" pawn almost compensates for the Exchange (rook for knight), but you would have to flip the colors to make it about even. Giving White to the side with the rook gives him a clear advantage, as shown by the evals, but it is less than a winning advantage, so in a long match White will win way more than Black wins, but Black will draw more than White wins, I expect. We know from past matches that Exchange Odds (Ra1 for Nb8) is more than f2 odds but slightly less than f7 odds.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:03 pmThis is what I meant, I did NOT let it finish, but it seems to be that they are equal handicapsChessqueen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:22 pmYou don't state the time controls, was this with the simulated match conditions (3' + 2" for Dragon, 15' + 10" for Gaviota)? If so, then I agree, Gaviota 0.84 32 bit is stronger in Rapid than a 2500 human GM. My latest studies suggest the following conversion formula for estimating human FIDE elo in Rapid (15' + 10") play from CCRL Rapid ratings: human FIDE = 2/3 (CCRL) + 1000. So with Gaviota at 2570 CCRL Rapid, this gives 2713 as the estimated human FIDE rating that should be needed to score 50% vs. Gaviota 0.84 32 bit on one core of modern i7 at Rapid. That's why I suggested having both engines play with 3' + 2"; that would reduce the estimated strength of Gaviota to a level much closer to human 2500 (still above it, but not way above it). Regarding hardware, my latest simulations suggest that using more than 16 threads for this type of match is actually counterproductive, so I'll probably limit Dragon to 16 threads unless I get new data. Regarding opening, it is well known that with b1 missing, 1e4 is dubious due to 1...d5! It's very difficult for White to get any opening advantage (ignoring the missing piece) when giving b1 odds. Human GMs will at least work out the best initial 3 or 4 moves against reasonable opening tries by White at knight odds, that's one reason they have a better chance than similar strength engines with no book.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:47 am I have never seen any GM playing like Komodo a complete open position without castling its King and going after its opponent
Komodo rules!
The time control was 3'+2" for the last 4 games. Mr. Kaufman, I have a question, is a Knight Plus a pawn a bigger handicap than a Rook Odds, With Komodo Dragon playing with White having the first move. ?
Komodo rules!