Dragon by Komodo Chess

[Jhoravi]

The problem is that if the handicap is high enough to give humans a good chance (like knight odds or even two pawns), the stronger side almost always wins in self play so it can't really learn how to trick the opponent.

If the stronger side always wins then let it prefer shortest victory vs longer ones. Isn't that possible during training?

[Madeleine Birchfield]

The Komodo Settings and Usage page on the Komodo Chess website needs to be updated. It is currently stuck on Komodo 11.01.

https://komodochess.com/store/pages.php?cmsid=14

The Komodo 13 page needs to be updated as well. It says that Komodo 14 is the current engine, when Komodo 14 has gone on sale and replaced with Dragon as the current engine.

https://komodochess.com/Komodo13.htm

[Madeleine Birchfield]

Same goes with the Frequently Asked Questions page, which seems to be stuck on Komodo 9.3.

https://komodochess.com/store/pages.php?cmsid=20

[Marcus9]

Hi Larry, Is there any chance of NNUE specialized for losing positions for use in handicap matches?

We actually did include some such positions in the training which might help a bit in such matches, probably not a lot though. The problem is that if the handicap is high enough to give humans a good chance (like knight odds or even two pawns), the stronger side almost always wins in self play so it can't really learn how to trick the opponent. I suppose we could train it by playing against a crippled version of itself, but that might mess up normal play so we haven't tried that. We are considering possible opponents for such a match. I wonder, which players would readers most like to see facing Dragon in a handicap match (other than Magnus Carlsen who has never shown interest in playing such matches with engines)?

How does Dragon fare at giving knight odd in slow bullet? My dream is to see Hikaru Nakamura against Dragon at knight odds in many games 2 '+ 1 " in a row, like 12 or 24 games.
While perhaps Hikaru would still be the favorite, it could be a periodic event to track Komodo's progress.

[mjlef]

Hi Larry, Is there any chance of NNUE specialized for losing positions for use in handicap matches?

We actually did include some such positions in the training which might help a bit in such matches, probably not a lot though. The problem is that if the handicap is high enough to give humans a good chance (like knight odds or even two pawns), the stronger side almost always wins in self play so it can't really learn how to trick the opponent. I suppose we could train it by playing against a crippled version of itself, but that might mess up normal play so we haven't tried that. We are considering possible opponents for such a match. I wonder, which players would readers most like to see facing Dragon in a handicap match (other than Magnus Carlsen who has never shown interest in playing such matches with engines)?

How does Dragon fare at giving knight odd in slow bullet? My dream is to see Hikaru Nakamura against Dragon at knight odds in many games 2 '+ 1 " in a row, like 12 or 24 games.
While perhaps Hikaru would still be the favorite, it could be a periodic event to track Komodo's progress.

Yes, we definitely need to update these. Note that there is an updated Resume file included in the downloads. For each version.

[AdminX]

Just read this on Twitter.

[lkaufman]

The file shows a ten game match with Lc0 with a score of one win each and eight draws, and the sole loss was by adjudication, not time. Could you please explain what you think is the problem with Komodo or Dragon time management? It's not obvious from the file.

I noticed that, unfortunately, there is a bug with time compared to other engines. The engine does not lose on time but it has problems with it.

Are you just saying that Dragon and Komodo tend to take more time than opposing engines? If so why would you call that a bug? Do you have evidence that we would do better taking less time?

[carldaman]

Larry,

Curious, have you given any thought of going up against a strong human GM with Dragon set to Armageddon mode as Black and the human as White? The GM would basically get draw odds with White, if he can get the draw, while Dragon would go all out attacking with Black. It would be an very realistic and exciting handicap.

[lkaufman]

Larry,

Curious, have you given any thought of going up against a strong human GM with Dragon set to Armageddon mode as Black and the human as White? The GM would basically get draw odds with White, if he can get the draw, while Dragon would go all out attacking with Black. It would be an very realistic and exciting handicap.

Back in 2007, Rybka defeated GM Joel Benjamin with those conditions (draw and White odds) 6 to 2 in standard time limit games. Perhaps coupled with enormous time odds (bullet vs classical tc with no ponder) it might be reasonably fair vs. Magnus Carlsen if he wanted to play. I do think it is a very interesting handicap, it's just not enough to give even top GMs much of a chance without a big "kicker" as suggested.

[lkaufman]

Hi Larry, Is there any chance of NNUE specialized for losing positions for use in handicap matches?

We actually did include some such positions in the training which might help a bit in such matches, probably not a lot though. The problem is that if the handicap is high enough to give humans a good chance (like knight odds or even two pawns), the stronger side almost always wins in self play so it can't really learn how to trick the opponent. I suppose we could train it by playing against a crippled version of itself, but that might mess up normal play so we haven't tried that. We are considering possible opponents for such a match. I wonder, which players would readers most like to see facing Dragon in a handicap match (other than Magnus Carlsen who has never shown interest in playing such matches with engines)?

How does Dragon fare at giving knight odd in slow bullet? My dream is to see Hikaru Nakamura against Dragon at knight odds in many games 2 '+ 1 " in a row, like 12 or 24 games.
While perhaps Hikaru would still be the favorite, it could be a periodic event to track Komodo's progress.

I believe that Dragon is the best engine now for giving knight odds, but I think Hikaru is too strong for knight odds at 2' + 1". Maybe 1' + 1" knight odds might be about fair. We don't have much data yet, Dragon is too new. I can say that at Rapid (15' + 10"), I think it could maintain a chess.com rating close to 2500 giving knight odds, which is probably something like 2400 FIDE.