morality and legality of dowloading robbolito

[mariaclara]

I agree with Unc Bob.
(nope Unc Terry. his banning me from this forum several times for
posting in text language didn't influence me)

bob wrote:
That is _exactly_ what has happened here. "innocent until proven guilty"
is still the rule of law here.

Just because vas said so, isn't enough. he should come up with some supporting statement.

[Steve B]

As i Write...Polls results are holding about even with 35 voting that there is some legal/moral issue with downloading and 39 voting its OK
almost 1:1

the interesting question for me about all of the IppRobo threads which have been running now for about 5 weeks is...

how many members have actually changed their opinions about the engines?
how many have come to the debate feeling one way and then switched their opinion?
if we ran a poll on that one i would bet the ranch that very few have changed their minds
which BTW is true for many debates here and in the CTF
in almost 12 years here i can count on one hand the number of times i have actually seen someone change their opinion and concede an issue

Heels Dug In Regards
Steve

[M ANSARI]

I think you will find that just like with the Strelka issue, a lot are finally resigned to the fact that it is in fact a Rybka clone and not the work of some new, yet unknown programming genius who has just entered the chess engine scene. This fact though will not change anyone's original opinion with regards to ethics or morality. On the same token, many have no problems buying stolen goods so long they don't "know absolutely" it is stolen.

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

I think you will find that just like with the Strelka issue, a lot are finally resigned to the fact that it is in fact a Rybka clone and not the work of some new, yet unknown programming genius who has just entered the chess engine scene. This fact though will not change anyone's original opinion with regards to ethics or morality. On the same token, many have no problems buying stolen goods so long they don't "know absolutely" it is stolen.

Very well said.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hello Bob,

"IN TIMES TODAY" GPL isn't the right way for hold own ideas.
Topic is: CONCLUSIVENESS

"IN TIMES TODAY" ...
It's uncontrollable which ideas from others find the way in all the sources of chess engines.

The most of the freeware programmers speaking about it.
The most of the commercial programmers muting.

Means that the _chain of causation_ will be bigger and bigger but the most important origin comes from a dozen of persons only, you know that !!

Rakishly:
I am sure that "Hash-Tables" isn't 500 invented.

The problem with GPL _in my opinion_ is the following:
Program x will be available with GPL and logical free sources.
The knowledge for the programmer of program x will be come not from saints.

And now:
Give me only one reason to say that the programmer of program x can made Programm x available with GPL.

You are speaking each time from GPL but GPL isn't the best way .... more or less an old way ... the first try !!

Sorry Bob, I can't see any reason for it.

Thats the main problem we have with the "chain of causation" in computer chess.

Or with other words:
GPL isn't contemporary !!

Now, it's a job in times today to find a better solution.
I am sure we have he same opinion about it.

I think interesting are the new ideas programmers added in the _own_ engines.

Point 1:
We need a full list of programming ideas from the past and the origin for it.

Examples:
Bitboards comes from Alexandro Damiani (Switzerland, programamer of Fortress) and Prof. Robert Hyatt (USA, programmer of Crafty). I am not sure I am right or not ... if not ... you will be get directly my apology.

For each of this examples we can add "Example-Sources" on a webpage with the possibility to discuss about each of the example-sources. Perhaps other programmers will make changes or have additional ideas about it and can add the own information on this site.

Point 2:
Programmers can add on this site her own new ideas or not. If "not" the sources can be send to a group of experts ... like your persons for a checkup. You are teaching computer chess since over 20 years with bravura in the past.

OK, a large future project. Should be organice by the right persons.
I think we should have a result around in 1-2 years.

Furthermore, we give a lot of people the possibility to find the way to "RIGHT LEARNING" !! At the moment all what we have is a big confusion to one of the most interesting topic about programming.

And in my opinion we should be intelligently enough to give the world the information ... look ... what the chess programmers do

Best
Frank

PS:
Long time not writing such a long message in english.
Please have patience with my bad english, my english teacher Alfred Palang too

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hello Rolf,

Fame is but a transient shadow.
What's in a name?

No persons other than yourself is a saint
Perhaps programmes like Vas is a saint. Perhaps programmer working for ChessBase are saints. Perhaps or not.

The most of the olders have to learn it.
It's not easy to learn with years of live.

The next one:

The Americans are a young proud folk, proud of the own historie.
Most of confusion but also great ideas comes from young people, young folks.

Most of blind perspectives comes from older folks, older people.
Not the regulation but more as often to see.

Nobody will read it, nobody like it to read ... last two sentence.
Experience of life must not be have the positive effect others like.

If I read messages by yourself I can see little provocation each time. Why not, is your art of discuss and you like it ... its your life.

Perhaps for around 20 years the most have the opinion ... provocation in discuss will prove a successfull. Opinions may be changed.

Thinking about it ...

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Gian-Carlo,

in the situation we have you can nothing do ... NOTHING without new efforts.

To ignore such engines like Robbolito (if RobboLito is a clone ... I missed so far the prof) will make the situation not better.

For commercial programmers, like you, is all very disappointed and I can understand it.

But I am sure you have your own loyally / faithfully customers.

With time more and more groups will be build. For sure also more as one group of persons which like clones, hacker software etc.. In five years we have 5 different groups of persons which like clones, hacker software. Perhaps 20 groups of hacker teams or more.

The group of persons which used such things must live with it. I have a clear conscience to buy for it.

I have the following opinion:
Programmers should have to guard his own ideas. GPL isn't the right way (see my answere today of a posting from Bob). If programmers don't guard his own ideas ... I think this group of persons have to life with clones and copies from the own ideas.

Very hard but reality !!
And for sure you know it too.

Not nice to see that cracks from Ruffian and Ktulu are a short time after release are available.

Example:
If Robbolito will run without crashes and ponder = on, why I should not tested this engine if I like the style. And why I should not buy Deep Sjeng if I like the work you do. I will buy your next version for sure because I like your engine too.

If I can see that a clone will give me fun and improvements (the programmer say ... my program based on ...) I will give the engine a chance (so far like Protector, Cyclone).

Not easy to see for users like me:
Which of the commercial and free programmers working honest. In your case I am sure ...

Different point of views:

The site of the users
The site of the commercial programmers
The site of the GPL persons
The site of the freeware programmers without free sources
The site of the persons which created a rating list.
and so on ...

The poll is interesting ... you can see which of the group have here the most members

For myself a very hard topic:
I gave many of my free time computer chess in the past. Nice to see that from my site many persons jump to chessbase to the freeware programmers and other interesting sites.

Try to power the commercials, the freeware selection and have bad experience with clones too.

Thinking on Leiden, Ruffian won ... you know.

Days before Vincent Diepeveen gave his statement: "Ruffian is a clone". Different sources sent PerOla to two persons. I read nothing ... sorry for my statement. OK, in this time your first commercial version are available too. I am sure you don't like to see that Ruffian will be available too. I am not thinking about it.

In all groups we can found black sheeps.
And for sure, not all what I do in the past for computer chess are right. I made often mistakes because I made to many things to the same time. And my opinion are not right in each case ... but I saw it later.

Let me have fun with Sjeng and your work you do for the others and me. And I hope you don't lose your interest on computer chess.

Best
Frank

[Rolf]

Excuse me, I am no fan of life sentences, but for me you are always connected or linked with ElChinito, a program you once sold and which was a clone or illegal, whatever. In other words, suddenly you cant pretend that you have differentiated opinions or knowledge about clones or such illegal engines. You are in that business for so long now that if you were an expert the several cases wouldnt have happened.

The ethical question is not so easy to understand. Before I touch something or download it, or sell it, I must have informations, it's not enough that I enjoy a program or have fun. That parameter is crap. At first it should be sober. It's already a sin to address yourself to Gian-Carlo as if you were a friend and you tell him that if you liked a clone then why not using it. But then in a kind of remorse you wish him that he has fans who would buy his program inspite the many clones around who cold be stronger and loved by people like you. This is all very confused and typical for the actual madness.

BTW Gian-Carlo is the ONLY commercial programmer collegue with a real name who defended or spoke pro Vas when people went on tangents what Vas might have done wrong or not had reacted in time or such nonsense. And you clone seller fan dare to approach him in a tone as if he were one of your kind? That stinks, more so because you think you could - as a clone seller - communicate here as if you were sober. You are not. Like this Norm Schmidt who also sold his own clones.

Note that I dont write about you in particular, but you give me the chance to comment on the attitude of several here wh have no ethics who think that they had nothing to hide or to fear, although they support cloning and speak nasty stuff about Vas.

It's so funny. Someone who is pro clone normally couldnt attack Vas who stood under permanent flames as if he were a cloner himself from the beginning of Rybka. Because as Bob always said, you cant have it both ways. Or assumed you were against cloners and attacked Vas in that line, then you cant comment on the actual cloners in a positive manner. You cant have it both ways.

[Terry McCracken]

Careful Rolf, I see another lawsuit against you in the near future.

[ernest]

Hello Rolf,

Frank, please don't feed the troll!...