Where are the sources for Rebel and the newer CSTal if ...

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hello Ed,
Hello Chris,

if Rebel based on Toga, Toga based on Fruit ... the sources should be available.
I can't find this!

Same for CSTal!
If the _newer_ CSTal, created in Corona times ... based on Toga / Fruit.
Sources from CSTal are available, not for the newer CSTal EAS!

Perhaps there are also reasons?

Best
Frank

Fabian's work should always be appreciated.

[Rebel]

Hello Ed,
Hello Chris,

if Rebel based on Toga, Toga based on Fruit ... the sources should be available.
I can't find this!

Look harder

Kidding aside, all of them have been on the old rebel13.nl, but since I dropped the site you now can find them on the internet archive.

Same for CSTal!
If the _newer_ CSTal, created in Corona times ... based on Toga / Fruit.
Sources from CSTal are available, not for the newer CSTal EAS!

Perhaps there are also reasons?

Best
Frank

Fabian's work should always be appreciated.

[mclane]

CSTal is not based on fruit/toga.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Ed,

OK, but should be not available in "Internet archive" ??!

Should be available with the download link!
It must be clear to everyone with the download link and the sources.
For Rebel, Rebel EAS and Rebel Extreme.

Important, or people can't link to your site without to get own problems!

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

CREDITS
. Code Base : Chris Whittington
. Neural network : Ed Schröder
. Opening Book : Jeroen Noomen

Thats what I can find on your webpage.

I missed:
- Code Base: Fabien LETOUZEY, Thomas Gaksch and all the others involved on Toga IV II and before!
- https://www.chessprogramming.org/Toga

Futhermore, the sources!
That's not correct Ed!!

Best
Frank

[Eelco de Groot]

All the Rebel versions that were based on Toga sources came with those sources, the neural networks of Rebel were trained by Ed and based on Chris Whittington's neural network of course. I don't think those networks were GPL, or any other license, and are still private. As far as I know All later versions (CSTal and Rebel both) have I think absolutely zero in common with Toga, Toga which was a hopeless mess after after all the changes, by Voodoo magicians and truckdrivers anyway. You could read about that on the TDBB Toga Developers Bulletin Board from Shaun Brewer if that forum still existed, it was fun but nothing like all the more modern stuff that came from (after, that is maybe a better word. They built on everything before of course. What I think they have in common is the tuning, every little change was now tested, scientifically if you will. Rybka and Stockfish took that to another level, later) Fabien Letouzey's Fruit and Tord Romstad's Glaurung. These two, with other programmers sharing their code here, are the fathers of modern, and especially open source of these, chess. Rybka, Stockfish and all strong engines building from what they taught and learned. Toga was a kludge based on brilliant streamlined and tuned Fruit.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Eelco,

not speaking from neural networks.

For an example after all I understand are the sources from Rebel EAS and Rebel Extreme the same, maybe also for Rebel 16.x. The NN file is changed.

Rebel based on Toga and sources must be available.

I can't see that the sources on Rebel site are available.
I can't see a hint on Rebel website that Rebel based on Toga.

To say, on the older site (not longer available) are the sources from Rebel, based on Toga is ...
Sorry ... BULLSHIT! Should be OK, if the programmers of Fruit and Toga are mentioned but I read ...

CREDITS
. Code Base : Chris Whittington ???????
. Neural network : Ed Schröder
. Opening Book : Jeroen Noomen

What on earth does Chris Whittington have to do with Toga/Fruit Sources? On first place should be: Fabien!

It is not a free pass for older programmers, who have certainly achieved more than just performance, to think they can do whatever they want but expect younger programmers to always follow the rules or even post comparisons on the internet about what could be cloned or not (Sim tool).

Sorry, that's too much!

Best
Frank

[mclane]

What is your problem Frank ?
Eelco is correct that later Rebels are not based on toga anymore but on CSTal.
And CSTal was not based on Toga.

It was a closed source.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Honestly Thorsten,

I have no interest to start a discussion with an Ed Schröder / Chris Whittington Fan-Boy, you know.

After Ed Schröder created Rodent NN, Rodent NNUE, Toga II v4 NN later Rebel with code of Toga II v4 with own neural networks the credibility has hit rock bottom.

Especially after the comment ...

Code: Select all

"Look harder :D
Kidding aside, all of them have been on the old rebel13.nl, but since I dropped the site you now can find them on the internet archive."

In times Ed Schröder released Rebel NN, set a message in TalkChess about it, I was happy because finally someone had mentioned Fabien appropriately and honestly. Enough people have profited from his work without ever mentioning Fabien.

Now he disappoints me on all fronts.

Without any ifs or buts ...
Not correct and should be corrected by Ed himself on his own webpage.

Best
Frank

[smatovic]

Sorry, but I don't get what you complain about Frank, on Ed's old* and new web site everything is clearly stated, Rebel 14, Rebel 15, Rebel 16:

https://rebel13.nl/windows/rebel-14.html

https://rebel13.nl/windows/rebel-15.html

https://rebel7775.wixsite.com/rebel

--
Srdja

* rebel13.nl is the old site someone took over.