I Believe the Women GM are underrated

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Chessqueen
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I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by Chessqueen »

In the recent Candidate, Radjabov, Teimour ended 3rd among the best, but he lost to WGM Ju Wenjun :shock:
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CornfedForever
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Re: I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by CornfedForever »

One game does not a decent theory make. :wink:

Besides, as long as top level Women chose to play primarily in their closed (women's only) circuit...it is hard to prove anything.

You do realize after day 1 she has 1 win...and 3 losses (Radjabov has 1 draw and 3 losses) ? He may be a bit tired.

Besides, it's a rapid 15 min (10 sec increment) tourney ...which randomizes the play and thus the results. A more serious time control match would like result in a lopsided result for Radjabov.
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AndrewGrant
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Re: I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by AndrewGrant »

CornfedForever wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:50 am Besides, as long as top level Women chose to play primarily in their closed (women's only) circuit...it is hard to prove anything.
My understanding is that the women who can achieve a GM title do so rather than settle for WGM. I'm certain that if there were female players able to compete at the level of the top N men, they would. Just so happens that, for whatever reason, men have larger tails on the chess playing distribution. More extremely good men than extremely good women -- but also more extremely bad men than extremely bad women, even though I presume the medians are equal and the distributions nicely overlap for the majority of both populations.
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CornfedForever
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Re: I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by CornfedForever »

AndrewGrant wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:40 am
CornfedForever wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:50 am Besides, as long as top level Women chose to play primarily in their closed (women's only) circuit...it is hard to prove anything.
I'm certain that if there were female players able to compete at the level of the top N men, they would.
I've thought about this a lot...and am not so sure. Yes, some would simply because some will want to test themselves.

However, to 'earn a living' as a player one has to be in a pool where they are comparatively better than most of the other players...because everyone can't earn a living playing chess. As long as there is effectively a 'womens circuit', there is no incentive for these better players to wade waist deep into a larger pool where bigger sharks trying to get their meal as well. When in the prime of their chess (playing) life...unless you have benefactors, it makes sense on a human level...and fodder for people to debate on chess forums :roll:

It's a catch-22 as concerns discussion of men vs women in chess. Neither 'good' or 'bad' strictly speaking I suppose.
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AndrewGrant
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Re: I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by AndrewGrant »

CornfedForever wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:33 pm
AndrewGrant wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:40 am
CornfedForever wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:50 am Besides, as long as top level Women chose to play primarily in their closed (women's only) circuit...it is hard to prove anything.
I'm certain that if there were female players able to compete at the level of the top N men, they would.
I've thought about this a lot...and am not so sure. Yes, some would simply because some will want to test themselves.

However, to 'earn a living' as a player one has to be in a pool where they are comparatively better than most of the other players...because everyone can't earn a living playing chess. As long as there is effectively a 'womens circuit', there is no incentive for these better players to wade waist deep into a larger pool where bigger sharks trying to get their meal as well. When in the prime of their chess (playing) life...unless you have benefactors, it makes sense on a human level...and fodder for people to debate on chess forums :roll:

It's a catch-22 as concerns discussion of men vs women in chess. Neither 'good' or 'bad' strictly speaking I suppose.
You do make a good point about monetary incentives.

On the other hand, whats stopping a player from competing in the women's events, and also jumping into the chesscom events, the lichess events, and other online venues?
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CornfedForever
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Re: I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by CornfedForever »

AndrewGrant wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:37 pm
CornfedForever wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:33 pm
AndrewGrant wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:40 am
CornfedForever wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:50 am Besides, as long as top level Women chose to play primarily in their closed (women's only) circuit...it is hard to prove anything.
I'm certain that if there were female players able to compete at the level of the top N men, they would.
I've thought about this a lot...and am not so sure. Yes, some would simply because some will want to test themselves.

However, to 'earn a living' as a player one has to be in a pool where they are comparatively better than most of the other players...because everyone can't earn a living playing chess. As long as there is effectively a 'womens circuit', there is no incentive for these better players to wade waist deep into a larger pool where bigger sharks trying to get their meal as well. When in the prime of their chess (playing) life...unless you have benefactors, it makes sense on a human level...and fodder for people to debate on chess forums :roll:

It's a catch-22 as concerns discussion of men vs women in chess. Neither 'good' or 'bad' strictly speaking I suppose.
You do make a good point about monetary incentives.

On the other hand, whats stopping a player from competing in the women's events, and also jumping into the chesscom events, the lichess events, and other online venues?
First...I'm only talking serious time control, OTB chess as I alluded to above.

But to your question...I can only guess:
1. They are not going to make any $$ in them....perhaps an appearance fee (?)
2. Their results against the top male players will make them look bad.
3. The organizers only allot...what maybe 2 spots for the ladies IF women are invited. I saw one 'chessable' type tourney a few months ago where two (?) women were invited. It was some convoluted scoring system. Neither made it out of the first round. I think one...maybe both were World Champions...one for sure. It wasn't pretty.

The world is very 'PC' these days. But...I could not help but wonder about the Carissa Yip invite to play in the US Junior Championship being played right now. Yip is again playing...but this time a mysterious, untitled young 2130 player is getting an invite. Why him? So she will not finish at the bottom again? It's the conspiratorial part of my brain that is asking...I'm not really wondering why SHE got the invite. I'm wondering why HE got the invite.

And I notice she - an IM and former (current I believe) US Women's Champion....lost to said 2130 a few moments ago and sits in last place. She played a 'Reversed Hippo' in a serious time control game...and got suitably trashed. 2 draws out of 5 games at the moment. People (I would hope) can be free to draw conclusions without being called 'sexist' and such. I'm not drawing any...just yet. At the moment, I am only wandering out loud.
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CornfedForever
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Re: I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by CornfedForever »

Too late to edit, but I find that Pedro got the invite by winning the US Junior Open. And he's rated 2091.
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Chessqueen
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Re: I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by Chessqueen »

CornfedForever wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:50 am One game does not a decent theory make. :wink:

Besides, as long as top level Women chose to play primarily in their closed (women's only) circuit...it is hard to prove anything.

You do realize after day 1 she has 1 win...and 3 losses (Radjabov has 1 draw and 3 losses) ? He may be a bit tired.

Besides, it's a rapid 15 min (10 sec increment) tourney ...which randomizes the play and thus the results. A more serious time control match would like result in a lopsided result for Radjabov.
She ended up on top of shankland and Radjabov, two GREAT Male chessplayers, both rated around 50 and 80 points above her :roll:
https://en.chessbase.com/post/ftx-miami-2022-d4
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CornfedForever
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Re: I Believe the Women GM are underrated

Post by CornfedForever »

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:04 pm
She ended up on top of shankland and Radjabov, two GREAT Male chessplayers, both rated around 50 and 80 points above her :roll:
https://en.chessbase.com/post/ftx-miami-2022-d4
Uh...you do know that Radjabov was ill and withdrew after round 5 so all those 'goose-eggs' you point to are beyond misleading.

It's almost like you think winning a game equates with 'underrated'. I've beaten and drawn several IM/GM's online...and beaten (and drawn) several times against people rated several hundred rating points above me OTB (thru IM...not played many GM's). It in no way means I am "overrated". You seem to be suffering from some sort of 'confirmation bias'.

A win here and there in a non-standard TC or format really means nothing outside that individual game. So, you are free to believe as you wish...but don't put too much 'faith' in said belief. As I am fond of saying, at the heart of Believe or Beliefs we will often find a 'lie'.
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