mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

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Ovyron
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by Ovyron »

Zenmastur wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:39 am They are more useful if they are based on reasonable time control engine matches.
But they become less useful over time, as anything you got would be obsoleted (it's surprising how different those percentages look when compared to "reasonable" games from 1 year ago), any effort put into these will have become wasted time in the future.

To the point where you get more accuracy by removing old games from the equation, specially if modern engines are able to find stronger moves that you didn't have, and then old weaker moves are just adding noise. This is a reason people still lose games, they follow old lines produced by old engines that made them look good (and by "old", I mean July 2019 lines, 6 months are enough for things to become obsolete. The percentages you produce today will become obsolete by September 2020, unless engine improvement stops to a halt, then they'd last longer.)

You can come up with the strongest 1.g4 book and be very happy about it, but chances are by 2021 you'll take a look and see how poor it'll have aged.
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Ovyron
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by Ovyron »

Zenmastur wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:43 am Do you own this software? How buggy is it? What does it cost?
Yes.

It's very buggy, but it's mostly errors that pop up on the screen ("Access Violations") but have no negative impact, and others that just require a computer restart to go away.

It costs $197 :shock: - But you can try a free trial and see if it works for you.

http://www.bookup.com/home/chess-openin ... am-status/

It's extremely overpriced for what it does, I recall getting it at some ancient point in the past where it costed $20 or so in some offer (I got BookUp and just upgraded for free, back then.)
jp
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by jp »

Ovyron wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:56 am It costs $197 :shock: - But you can try a free trial and see if it works for you.

http://www.bookup.com/home/chess-openin ... am-status/

It's extremely overpriced for what it does
Unfortunately the free version does not include backsolving, so if that's what you're interested in...

http://www.bookup.com/catalog/comparison-chart/
http://www.bookup.com/home/backsolving/

That and transpositions/move orders are the main things missing from the free version.
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Ovyron
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by Ovyron »

Well, transposition/move orders is bugged on the commercial version anyway, you can reach the same position in two ways and it won't notice. Sometimes it doesn't even work. Others it becomes empty after a while (it can't find a single line that reaches this position :shock: )

Anyway, backsolving DOES WORK on the free version, it's just not automatic, you have to visit the leaf nodes manually, and their score will be brought to previous positions. All the full version does is visiting each leaf node and going back automatically for all lines (and detect repetitions that will be scored at 0 with a special symbol) but one can backsolve manually, just to check how's it like.

I was tempted to suggest all these features to phhnguyen for Banksia GUI, but they're so powerful for chess position analysis that I'm glad they haven't been implemented on a free GUI yet...
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by mmt »

1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4 Rb8 9. Qa6 Rb6 10. Qd3 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Nf3 Bd6 13. h4 h5 14. b3 Nf6 15. Bg5 O-O 16. e3 Re8 17. Kf1 Bg4 18. Ne1 Bb4 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nc2 Be7 21. f3 Be6 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. Kf2 Nd7 24. Ne6 Qa5 25. Bxe7 Rxe7 26. b4 Qb6 27. Ng5 Ba6 28. Qa3 Rbe8 29. Bf1 Bxf1 30. Raxf1 Qc7 31. Qd3 a5 32. a3 axb4 33. axb4 Qd6 34. Rfg1 Nb6 35. Qf5 Nf8 36. Re1 Nc4 37. Nh3 Ra7 38. Qxh5 Ra2 39. Re2 Qe7 40. e4 dxe4 41. fxe4 Qd7 42. Ng5 f6 43. Nf3 Nd6 44. Nfe1 Rxe4 45. Qf3 Qe6 46. Rxe4 Nxe4+ 47. Kg1 Rb2 48. Rh2 Rb3 49. Nd3 f5 50. Qf1 Ng3 51. Qd1

[d]5nk1/6p1/2p1q3/5p2/1P1P3P/1r1N2n1/2N4R/3Q2K1 b - - 3 2
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Ovyron
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by Ovyron »

mmt wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:05 pm Qd1
1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4 Rb8 9. Qa6 Rb6 10. Qd3 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Nf3 Bd6 13. h4 h5 14. b3 Nf6 15. Bg5 O-O 16. e3 Re8 17. Kf1 Bg4 18. Ne1 Bb4 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nc2 Be7 21. f3 Be6 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. Kf2 Nd7 24. Ne6 Qa5 25. Bxe7 Rxe7 26. b4 Qb6 27. Ng5 Ba6 28. Qa3 Rbe8 29. Bf1 Bxf1 30. Raxf1 Qc7 31. Qd3 a5 32. a3 axb4 33. axb4 Qd6 34. Rfg1 Nb6 35. Qf5 Nf8 36. Re1 Nc4 37. Nh3 Ra7 38. Qxh5 Ra2 39. Re2 Qe7 40. e4 dxe4 41. fxe4 Qd7 42. Ng5 f6 43. Nf3 Nd6 44. Nfe1 Rxe4 45. Qf3 Qe6 46. Rxe4 Nxe4+ 47. Kg1 Rb2 48. Rh2 Rb3 49. Nd3 f5 50. Qf1 Ng3 51. Qd1 Qc4

[d]5nk1/6p1/2p5/5p2/1PqP3P/1r1N2n1/2N4R/3Q2K1 w - -
jp
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by jp »

Ovyron wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:56 pm 5nk1/6p1/2p5/5p2/1PqP3P/1r1N2n1/2N4R/3Q2K1 w - -
Komodo 13.2, depth 26 [27]: -2.39 (Ne5) [-2.18].

Ovyron wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:41 am Anyway, backsolving DOES WORK on the free version, it's just not automatic, you have to visit the leaf nodes manually, and their score will be brought to previous positions. All the full version does is visiting each leaf node and going back automatically for all lines (and detect repetitions that will be scored at 0 with a special symbol) but one can backsolve manually, just to check how's it like.
So when you just click through all the lines and the free version backsolves, will you be able to save the results?
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Ovyron
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by Ovyron »

jp wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:31 pm So when you just click through all the lines and the free version backsolves, will you be able to save the results?
Yeah, it like, auto-saves.
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by Alayan »

From the current position, Lichess' SF self-play led to mate in 46 moves. It exchanged the black rook for the two white knights and ended up two pawns to zero. The resulting KQRKQNNPP positions would still have been very hard to convert for a human, I think. Not optimal defenses or attacks, but it shows how bad white's position is.
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Re: mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

Post by mmt »

1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4 Rb8 9. Qa6 Rb6 10. Qd3 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Nf3 Bd6 13. h4 h5 14. b3 Nf6 15. Bg5 O-O 16. e3 Re8 17. Kf1 Bg4 18. Ne1 Bb4 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nc2 Be7 21. f3 Be6 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. Kf2 Nd7 24. Ne6 Qa5 25. Bxe7 Rxe7 26. b4 Qb6 27. Ng5 Ba6 28. Qa3 Rbe8 29. Bf1 Bxf1 30. Raxf1 Qc7 31. Qd3 a5 32. a3 axb4 33. axb4 Qd6 34. Rfg1 Nb6 35. Qf5 Nf8 36. Re1 Nc4 37. Nh3 Ra7 38. Qxh5 Ra2 39. Re2 Qe7 40. e4 dxe4 41. fxe4 Qd7 42. Ng5 f6 43. Nf3 Nd6 44. Nfe1 Rxe4 45. Qf3 Qe6 46. Rxe4 Nxe4+ 47. Kg1 Rb2 48. Rh2 Rb3 49. Nd3 f5 50. Qf1 Ng3 51. Qd1 Qc4 52. Nce1

[d]5nk1/6p1/2p5/5p2/1PqP3P/1r1N2n1/7R/3QN1K1 b - - 5 3