mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

[Ovyron]

Thanks for sharing. If you manage to draw I hope it's with some amazing variation like that (one that works) and not just because I missed something

[Uri Blass]

1)I stopped to work about my engine movei many years ago but I know that in tablebases positions it can report shorter mate than the shortest possible mate and it was not important for me to find the reason and fix the problem because I did not see a case when it could not win inspite of a mate score.

I remember that in the past some Fritz versions also reported wrong mate scores in tablebases position but had no problem to win from them.

Uri, does this mean you suspect all false mates (false upper bounds) announced were/are due to tablebase issues?

No

I did not use tablebases in the relevant analysis by Fritz and Movei.

The point is that both engines can report a mate score that is shorter than the shortest mate because of some bug and the bug does not cause them to blunder and draw a winning position in games based on my experience.

[jp]

1)I stopped to work about my engine movei many years ago but I know that in tablebases positions it can report shorter mate than the shortest possible mate ...
I remember that in the past some Fritz versions also reported wrong mate scores in tablebases position ...

Uri, does this mean you suspect all false mates (false upper bounds) announced were/are due to tablebase issues?

No I did not use tablebases in the relevant analysis by Fritz and Movei.

The point is that both engines can report a mate score that is shorter than the shortest mate because of some bug...

Okay, I understand now. When I read "in tablebase positions" the first time, I wrongly thought the engines were using tablebases, but I understand now you mean just that the examples were TB positions and that probably helped you know the "truth" about DTM, etc.

Okay, so that's a clear example then. If a commercial engine like Fritz could get it wrong then, I don't know how people can argue that engines cannot now. (Of course, we are not assuming that they do get it wrong, either.)

[Ovyron]

If a commercial engine like Fritz could get it wrong then, I don't know how people can argue that engines cannot now. (Of course, we are not assuming that they do get it wrong, either.)

The argument is that if it happens, it's a bug (unintended behavior by Fritz's developers, in this case), not how chess engines are meant to work.

[zullil]

If a commercial engine like Fritz could get it wrong then, I don't know how people can argue that engines cannot now. (Of course, we are not assuming that they do get it wrong, either.)

The argument is that if it happens, it's a bug (unintended behavior by Fritz's developers, in this case), not how chess engines are meant to work.

Are you still working to solve Zenmastur's mate problem?

[Ovyron]

Yeah, it has been fully solved to a mate in 34, which isn't enough. So what did he expect, that I'd just go and solve it like this, present the mate, he shows I'm not within 4, and then I have to defend 1.g4? Because I'd never have done that, it's evident these mate lines can be improved trivially, the engine wants to move pieces unnecessarily, waste time capturing the g pawn for no reason, take too long to push a pawn, etc.

I'd have never solved it to mate and then sent a dumb mating line that could be improved for white, the only problem is there's too many lines to improve...

[Ovyron]

1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4 Rb8 9. Qa6 Rb6 10. Qd3 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Nf3 Bd6 13. h4 h5 14. b3 Nf6 15. Bg5 O-O 16. e3 Re8 17. Kf1 Bg4 18. Ne1 Bb4 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nc2 Be7 21. f3 Be6 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. Kf2 Nd7 24. Ne6 Qa5 25. Bxe7 Rxe7 26. b4 Qb6 27. Ng5 Ba6 28. Qa3

I had 28.Qc3 as better, but I've been dedicating to refute white defenses more than to finding better attacks. Ensuring that I win instead of trying to find the fastest win.

1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4 Rb8 9. Qa6 Rb6 10. Qd3 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Nf3 Bd6 13. h4 h5 14. b3 Nf6 15. Bg5 O-O 16. e3 Re8 17. Kf1 Bg4 18. Ne1 Bb4 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nc2 Be7 21. f3 Be6 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. Kf2 Nd7 24. Ne6 Qa5 25. Bxe7 Rxe7 26. b4 Qb6 27. Ng5 Ba6 28. Qa3 Rbe8

[d]4r1k1/p2nrpp1/bqp3n1/3p2Np/1P1P3P/Q3PP2/P1N2KB1/R6R w - -

[zullil]

Yeah, it has been fully solved to a mate in 34, which isn't enough. So what did he expect, that I'd just go and solve it like this, present the mate, he shows I'm not within 4, and then I have to defend 1.g4? Because I'd never have done that, it's evident these mate lines can be improved trivially, the engine wants to move pieces unnecessarily, waste time capturing the g pawn for no reason, take too long to push a pawn, etc.

I'd have never solved it to mate and then sent a dumb mating line that could be improved for white, the only problem is there's too many lines to improve...

OK, you might as well just quit. Zenmastur's certainly made his point, that you would benefit tremendously from a hardware upgrade. Stockfish-dev has had the (apparent) solution for many days already. It's currently at depth 122. Not sure why I'm keeping it searching.

[Ovyron]

OK, you might as well just quit. Zenmastur's certainly made his point, that you would benefit tremendously from a hardware upgrade.

For solving a position to mate, yes. This has nothing to do with playing chess, where the move that the engine scores best may not even be best, that's a point I'll contend in the future.

Meanwhile, this is the only way that I have to get Zen to play 1.g4, so I won't give it up.

[zullil]

OK, you might as well just quit. Zenmastur's certainly made his point, that you would benefit tremendously from a hardware upgrade.

For solving a position to mate, yes. This has nothing to do with playing chess, where the move that the engine scores best may not even be best, that's a point I'll contend in the future.

Meanwhile, this is the only way that I have to get Zen to play 1.g4, so I won't give it up.

As he has pointed out, this challenge has everything to do with playing chess. If it takes you days to find an optimal line of play in this setting, things can only be worse in "typical" positions, where engine evaluations are not clear-cut mate scores.