As some of you may know I've been playing the latest online version of LCZero against an old dedicated chess computer, the Master. I think it was better known as the Milano Pro from the 1990s. It's based on an early Frans Morsch program running in a 20 MHz battery powered unit.
http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/milano_pro.html
It's about 2100 elo.
So far each fresh version of LCZero has lost all its games against the Master, 14-0
Today I played the latest ID 55 version (on the website - 2000 rollouts per move) and the Master beat it easily twice. The Master was playing at G20 in all games, but of course, on much slower hardware.
I then installed the ID 55 version on my PC and gave it 30 minutes for the game (Master still playing at G20) and running on my 1060 Nvidia graphics card, allowing around 100,000 rollouts per move. Given this is 5 doublings over the web version, it ought to be at least 250 elo stronger.
Then it played the Master again:
[White "Master"]
[Black "Lczero ID 55"]
The Master won a pawn with ease, and despite dithering never looked in trouble.
However, I suspect it's days are limited.
But for now it's 15-0 and counting...
LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
Moderator: Ras
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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
Keep us posted. Its a good measuring stick.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.
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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
Dedicated oldies are good measuring sticks for weak engines. Maybe get the German forum interested, there is a whole spectrum of even weaker oldies which could be use to measure this initial progress. Check the dedicated Activ list for possibilities.
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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
I have about 10 dedicated machines and using the MESS emulator access to about 30 more.IanO wrote:Dedicated oldies are good measuring sticks for weak engines. Maybe get the German forum interested, there is a whole spectrum of even weaker oldies which could be use to measure this initial progress. Check the dedicated Activ list for possibilities.
There are weaker ones i could try, yes. But now I think The Master (Milano Pro) may really be running out of time. It won't keep winning for long.
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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
I am now testing the latest ID 78 against the Master.
As usual the Master (Milano Pro, 20 MHz, Frans Morsch) played at G20 minutes.
LCZ ID 78 played from the server on "slow mode", so 2000 rollouts per move.
This is now the 6th match and up to now The Master has won every single game making the score 15 - 0.
How would the new version do?
[Event "1st Match Game (6th match)"]
[Date "2018.04.02"]
[White "Master"]
[Black "LCZ ID 78"]
[Result "1-0"]
Some highlights: LCZ ID 78 played a fascinating game with an interesting exchange sac.
The Master was better but then LCZ outplayed it and got a winning position! Unfortunately, it didn't have the tactical firepower to finish the game off and an incredible blunder on move 39 handed the Master the full point. Even so, I was shocked at how much LCZ had caught up.
Score: 16 - 0 to The Master
As usual the Master (Milano Pro, 20 MHz, Frans Morsch) played at G20 minutes.
LCZ ID 78 played from the server on "slow mode", so 2000 rollouts per move.
This is now the 6th match and up to now The Master has won every single game making the score 15 - 0.
How would the new version do?
[Event "1st Match Game (6th match)"]
[Date "2018.04.02"]
[White "Master"]
[Black "LCZ ID 78"]
[Result "1-0"]
Some highlights: LCZ ID 78 played a fascinating game with an interesting exchange sac.
The Master was better but then LCZ outplayed it and got a winning position! Unfortunately, it didn't have the tactical firepower to finish the game off and an incredible blunder on move 39 handed the Master the full point. Even so, I was shocked at how much LCZ had caught up.
Score: 16 - 0 to The Master
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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
This is the 2nd game in the match.
What started as rather boring opening had some interesting highlights.
First, LCZ declined swapping bishops on move 18, which MAY show it understands the value of the bishop pair.
Secondly, it gave up its "useless" c2 pawn on move 20, which I think was a mistake, because although the pawn was doubled, isolated etc. it was stopping black's pawns. This allowed the Master to create a passed pawn and I assumed it would be another win for the Master. Not so!
LCZ outplayed the Master and scored its first win!
[Event "2nd Match Game (6th match)"]
[Date "2018.04.02"]
[White "LCZ ID 78"]
[Black "Master"]
[Result "1-0"]
Score: 16 - 1 to the Master.
We need more games to establish if the ID 78 is as good as the Master at 2000 rollouts per move, but it must be close now. If I installed this version on my PC and allowed 100,000 rollouts per move (as I did with ID 55) I think LCZ would win nearly all of its games.
Exciting times.
Perhaps the Tasc R30 needs to be woken from its slumber...

What started as rather boring opening had some interesting highlights.
First, LCZ declined swapping bishops on move 18, which MAY show it understands the value of the bishop pair.
Secondly, it gave up its "useless" c2 pawn on move 20, which I think was a mistake, because although the pawn was doubled, isolated etc. it was stopping black's pawns. This allowed the Master to create a passed pawn and I assumed it would be another win for the Master. Not so!
LCZ outplayed the Master and scored its first win!
[Event "2nd Match Game (6th match)"]
[Date "2018.04.02"]
[White "LCZ ID 78"]
[Black "Master"]
[Result "1-0"]
Score: 16 - 1 to the Master.
We need more games to establish if the ID 78 is as good as the Master at 2000 rollouts per move, but it must be close now. If I installed this version on my PC and allowed 100,000 rollouts per move (as I did with ID 55) I think LCZ would win nearly all of its games.
Exciting times.
Perhaps the Tasc R30 needs to be woken from its slumber...

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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
There may still be a way to go. The following game was played on my local PC with over 100,000 rollouts per move.
[Date "2018.04.02"]
[White "Master"]
[Black "LCZero ID78" on Nvidia 1060 GPU]
[Result "1-0"]
1-0
[Date "2018.04.02"]
[White "Master"]
[Black "LCZero ID78" on Nvidia 1060 GPU]
[Result "1-0"]
1-0
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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
Well there are ups and downs. As LCZ moves into striking distance of the strong dedicated chess computers from the 1990s it loses some games and wins others.
On my PC I was able to try ID 80 at 100,000 rollouts per move, and it CRUSHED the Master in 14 moves as black! I played the game out just to be sure, but there was no need.
[Date "2018.04.03"]
[White "Master"]
[Black "LCZ ID80 Nvidia 1060, 100,000 rollouts per go"]
[Result "0-1"]
0-1
wooo..!
On my PC I was able to try ID 80 at 100,000 rollouts per move, and it CRUSHED the Master in 14 moves as black! I played the game out just to be sure, but there was no need.
[Date "2018.04.03"]
[White "Master"]
[Black "LCZ ID80 Nvidia 1060, 100,000 rollouts per go"]
[Result "0-1"]
0-1
wooo..!
Last edited by Werewolf on Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
The weaker web version - currently ID 78 - only has 2000 rollouts per go so it's not as strong. Here's the Vancouver 68000 flexing its muscles:
[Date "2018.04.03"]
[White "Vancouver 68000"]
[Black "LCZ ID 78"]
[Result "1-0"]
1-0
The Vancouver 68000 is this machine:
https://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/i ... uver_68000
It's about the same strength as the Master, slightly less strong tactically and much more conservative in playing style. However, like other Lang programs it's positional understanding is sound and its endgame is far better than the Master's.
[Date "2018.04.03"]
[White "Vancouver 68000"]
[Black "LCZ ID 78"]
[Result "1-0"]
1-0
The Vancouver 68000 is this machine:
https://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/i ... uver_68000
It's about the same strength as the Master, slightly less strong tactically and much more conservative in playing style. However, like other Lang programs it's positional understanding is sound and its endgame is far better than the Master's.
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Re: LCZero vs Dedicated machine from 1990s
I decided to see if the Vancouver 68000 could win again, but this time against "Big Brother", LCZero ID 8 at 100,000 rollouts per move, on my PC.
This happened:
[Date "2018.04.03"]
[White "Vancouver 68000"]
[Black "LCZ ID 80 Nvidia 1060 100K rollouts per go"]
[Result "0-1"]
0-1
Incredible.
Notice the same line as against the Master with the terrible 3...h6?
The Master tried to punish this with tactics, won a pawn but lost a piece. The Vancouver played better, typically sound if uninspired play. But as the game went on, slowly slowly, LCZ turned it around.
I will give these two class machines (The Master & Vancouver 68000) one more chance against an updated LCZ. If they lose again I propose bigger guns:
- Saitek RISC 2500
- Mephisto RISC 1 MB
- London 68030
- Tasc R30
The 90's machines won't go down without a fight.
This happened:
[Date "2018.04.03"]
[White "Vancouver 68000"]
[Black "LCZ ID 80 Nvidia 1060 100K rollouts per go"]
[Result "0-1"]
0-1
Incredible.
Notice the same line as against the Master with the terrible 3...h6?
The Master tried to punish this with tactics, won a pawn but lost a piece. The Vancouver played better, typically sound if uninspired play. But as the game went on, slowly slowly, LCZ turned it around.
I will give these two class machines (The Master & Vancouver 68000) one more chance against an updated LCZ. If they lose again I propose bigger guns:
- Saitek RISC 2500
- Mephisto RISC 1 MB
- London 68030
- Tasc R30
The 90's machines won't go down without a fight.