Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Vinvin · Post by **Vinvin** » Mon May 30, 2016 1:47 pm

Eelco de Groot wrote:
dadij wrote:
Vinvin wrote: For the second time : check the line !
For a long and accurate line, IDeA has about 0% chance to find the correct continuation.
Carl with his IDeA analysis is actually correct, 1.Nf5 doesn't give white much. Your analysis is flawed. It didn't take me long to see this. I used IDeA too, admittedly taking advantage of a new feature in Aquarium 2016. Hint: Have a look at 10...Kf7 instead of 10...Re8.
By coincidence, that is where I got stuck as well, I am leaning towards a draw but Serpent's eval is still 1.25 here after 16...Rc6. Probably 16. Rg5 Qe1 is the better defence instead of 16. Rg5 Rc6. And I don't have the Syzygy tablebases, let alone Lomonosov that you could probably use to good advantage so maybe someone with tablebases can give an easy answer?

New line using Dadi's Kf7 and 16...Qe1 :

[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "2016.05.30"] [Round "?"] [White "W"] [Black "B"] [Result "*"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "2r1k2r/4qpp1/p3p2p/1pn1P3/3N2P1/P7/1PP3QP/1K1R2R1 w k -"] 1. Nf5 exf5 2. gxf5 f6 (2... Rg8 3. Rd5 {!?} (3. e6 {?!} fxe6 4. fxe6 g5 {!?} (4... g6 5. Rgf1 a5 6. Rde1 b4 7. Qg3 Nxe6 8. Rxe6 Qxe6 9. Re1 Kd7 10. Rxe6 Kxe6 11. axb4 axb4 12. Qg4+ Kf7 13. Qxb4 {±}) 5. Rge1 g4 {8}) 3... g5 (3... Qc7 4. Re1 g6 5. Re3 Rd8 6. Rxd8+ Kxd8 7. Qa8+ {!} (7. Qd5+ Kc8 8. Rc3 Rd8 9. Qxc5 Qxc5 10. Rxc5+ Kb7 {±}) 7... Qc8 8. Qd5+ Ke8 9. f6 {+?-}) 4. Qh3 Na4 5. Qxh6 Qc7 6. Rc1 Nb6 7. Rd4 Qc5 8. c3 Nc4 9. Qh7 Rf8 10. e6 Qe5 11. f6 Qxe6 12. Rcd1 Qxf6 13. Re4+ Ne5 14. Qh3 {+?-}) 3. exf6 Qxf6 4. Qd5 Kf8 5. Rg6 Qf7 6. Qd6+ Kg8 7. Rdg1 Rh7 8. f6 Ne6 9. Qxa6 Qd7 10. Qb6 Kf7 (10... Re8 11. h4 Kh8 12. Qf2 Rf8 (12... gxf6 13. Qf5 Qd8 14. Rxf6 Ng7 15. Qf3 Qe7 16. Rf1 Rg8 17. Qc3 {+?-}) 13. Qf5 Qf7 14. fxg7+ Nxg7 15. Qxb5 Nf5 16. a4 Rg7 17. Rxg7 Nxg7 18. Qc6 {±}) 11. fxg7 Rxg7 12. Rxg7+ Nxg7 13. Qxh6 Qd4 14. Qg6+ Kf8 15. c3 Qe5 16. Rg5 Qe1+ 17. Ka2 Qe6+ 18. Qxe6 Nxe6 19. Rxb5 Ke7 20. Rh5 $13 {See diagram below, I suspect this can be drawn, but you probably get a better picture with the Syzygy or other tablebases } *your webbrowser and/or your host do not support iframes as required to display the chess board

[d]2r5/4k3/4n3/7R/8/P1P5/KP5P/8 b - -

After back and forth analyses (just before 20.Rh5), it seems to be drawish

Code: Select all

FEN: 2r5/4k3/4n3/1R6/8/P1P5/KP5P/8 w - - 1 20

Stockfish_160528_x64_modern_fast:
...
 43/79	09:16	 8 189 274k	14 709k	+0,01	20.Rb7+ Kd6 21.Rh7 Rc4 22.Rh6 Kd7 23.Rh3 Rf4 24.b4 Ng5 25.Rg3 Ne4 26.Rd3+ Kc6 27.Kb3 Rf2 28.h3 Rh2 29.Re3 Kd5 30.Ka4 Nd6 31.Rd3+ Kc6 32.Rg3 Rh1 33.Rf3 Rh2 34.Kb3 Ne4 35.Rd3 Nd2+ 36.Ka4 Nc4 37.Rg3 Nd6 38.Kb3 Ne4 39.Rg6+ Kd5 40.Rh6 Nd2+ 41.Ka4 Nb1 42.b5 Nxc3+ 43.Kb4 Ne4 44.a4 Rb2+ 45.Ka5 Ra2 46.Rh5+ Kc4 47.Rh4 Kd5 48.Kb4 Ra1 49.Ka5
 43/79	09:16	 8 189 274k	14 709k	+0,29	20.Rh5 Rc4 21.Kb3 Rf4 22.a4 Kd6 23.Ka3 Nc5 24.Rh6+ Kd7 25.Rh7+ Kd6 26.b4 Ne4 27.Rh3 Kc6 28.Kb3 Nd2+ 29.Kc2 Ne4 30.Rh8 Kd5 31.a5 Kc4 32.Rc8+ Kb5 33.Kd3 Rh4 34.Rb8+ Ka6 35.Rb6+ Ka7 36.Re6 Nf2+ 37.Kc2 Ne4 38.h3 Ng5 39.Re7+ Ka6 40.Rg7 Nf3 41.Rg6+ Ka7 42.Rg3 Ne5 43.Kd2 Nc4+ 44.Ke2 Nb2 45.Ke3 Ka6 46.Kf2 Na4 47.Ke1 Nb2 48.Rf3 Kb5 49.Kd2 Nc4+ 50.Kc2 Rh8 51.Rd3 Rh4 52.Kb3 Ka6 53.Rg3 Ka7 54.Ka4 Nb2+ 55.Ka3 Nc4+ 56.Kb3 Ka6 57.Rg6+ Ka7 58.Rg7+ Ka6
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 44/79	12:28	 10 955 507k	14 629k	+0,05	20.Rb7+ Kd6 21.Rh7 Rc4 22.Rh6 Kd7 23.Rh5 Kc6 24.Rh3 Rf4 25.b4 Ng5 26.Rh6+ Kc7 27.Kb3 Ne4 28.Rh7+ Kb6 29.Rh3 Nd2+ 30.Kc2 Nc4 31.a4 Rf2+ 32.Kd3 Nb2+ 33.Ke3 Rf6 34.a5+ Kb5 35.Rh7 Kc4 36.Rc7+ Kb3 37.Kd4 Nc4 38.Rh7 Rf4+ 39.Kd5 Rf5+ 40.Ke6 Re5+ 41.Kf6 Kxc3 42.a6 Kxb4 43.a7 Ra5 44.h4 Ra6+ 45.Kg5 Nd6 46.h5 Ne4+ 47.Kh4 Kb5 48.h6 Kc6
 44/79	12:28	 10 955 507k	14 629k	+0,29	20.Rh5 Rc4 21.Kb3 Rf4 22.a4 Kd6 23.Ka3 Nc5 24.Rh6+ Kd7 25.Rh7+ Kd6 26.b4 Ne4 27.Rh3 Kc6 28.Kb3 Nd2+ 29.Kc2 Ne4 30.Rh8 Kd5 31.a5 Kc4 32.Rc8+ Kb5 33.Kd3 Rh4 34.Rb8+ Ka6 35.Rb6+ Ka7 36.Re6 Nf2+ 37.Kc2 Ne4 38.h3 Ng5 39.Re5 Nf3 40.Rf5 Rxh3 41.b5 Ne1+ 42.Kb3 Nd3 43.Rf7+ Ka8 44.Rf8+ Ka7 45.Rf5 Kb7 46.Rd5 Nc1+ 47.Kb2 Ne2 48.Rc5 Nf4 49.Rf5 Nd3+ 50.Kc2 Ne1+ 51.Kd2 Nd3 52.Rd5

peter · Post by **peter** » Mon May 30, 2016 5:24 pm

Eelco de Groot wrote: Hi Peter, I think you used the backslash \ and the it does not work...

Shame on me!

Eelco de Groot wrote: I have not really looked to close at the pgn, but I think it is about the same eval that Vincent got? But if Dadi's variation is a draw...

I deleted some of the variations already after 11...h5, I had to switch some Serpent instances for looking at 10...Kf7 My Serpent's endresult I think was

41/86 666:01 +1.10 11...h5 12.Qe3 Qf7 13.Qc3 Rd8 14.Qe5 Rd4
15.Qb8+ Rd8 16.Qxb5 Rd1+ 17.Rxd1 Qxg6
18.Rd6 Qf7 19.a4 gxf6 20.Qf5 Nc7
21.Rd8+ Ne8 22.Qe4 Kf8 23.Rxe8+ Qxe8
24.Qxh7 Qe1+ (283.179.090.954) 7086

Vincent got a higher eval for White that is probably because I used an older Stockfish eval than the Development Stockfish. Or, it still is a draw

Of course that doesn't prove a thing neither, but I did let SF with White play out against komodo10 with Black at 100'+30", 12 threads and 8G hash each, ponder on and got this:

2r1k2r/4qpp1/p3p2p/1pn1P3/3N2P1/P7/1PP3QP/1K1R2R1 w k - 0 1

1. Nf5 exf5 2. gxf5 f6 3. exf6 Qxf6 4. Qd5 Kf8 5. Rg6 Qf7 6. Qd6+ Kg8 7. Rdg1 Rh7 8. f6 Ne6 9. Qxa6 Qd7 10. Qb6 Re8 11. h4 h5

12. Qe3 Qc7 13. Qe4 Qf7 14. Qd5 Rd8 15. Qxb5 Rd1+ 16. Rxd1 Qxg6 17. Rd6 Nf8 18. Qc6 Qg1+ 19. Ka2 Qa7 20. fxg7 Rxg7 21. a4 Rg4 22. b3 Rd4 23. Qg2+ Kh7 24. Rd5 Rxh4 25. a5 Qf7 26. a6 Rg4 27. Qd2 Kg8 28. Ra5 Qa7 29. Qd5+ Kg7 30. Qe5+ Kg8 31. Qxh5 Rg6 32. Qd5+ Kg7 33. Qc4 Ne6 34. Kb2 Rg5 35. Rxg5+ Nxg5 36. Qc6 Nf7 37. b4 Nd8 38. Qd5 Nf7 39. Qb7 Qd4+ 40. Kb3 Qe3+ 41. c3 Qe6+ 42. c4 Qe3+ 43. Ka4 Qe8+ 44. Ka5 Qe5+ 45. c5 Qa1+ 46. Kb6 Qf6+ 47. Qc6 Qd8+ 48. Qc7 Qf6+ 49. Ka7 Qf1 50. c6 Kg6 51. Qb6 Nd6 52. c7 Qf6 53. Qc6 Qe6 54. b5 Kh7 55. Qxd6 Qc8 56. b6 Qg4 57. Qe7+ Kg6 58. Qg7+ Kh5 59. Qxg4+ Kxg4 60. c8=Q+ Kf3 61. b7 Kg2 62. b8=Q Kf1 63. Qh2 Ke1 64. Qc1#

Your Output gives 12...Qf7, komodo played ...Qc7 in the game, so the first deviation already is a black one but the point to me is quite a different one anyhow:

It won't be easy to prove that 1.Nf5 is winning the game for sure, neither that 1.h4 is not, and yet I'd say 1.Nf5 is better, even if it has got just the edge over the next best moves.

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Mon May 30, 2016 8:06 pm

Vinvin wrote:

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2r5/4k3/4n3/7R/8/P1P5/KP5P/8 b - -

After back and forth analyses (just before 20.Rh5), it seems to be drawish

Code: Select all

FEN: 2r5/4k3/4n3/1R6/8/P1P5/KP5P/8 w - - 1 20

Stockfish_160528_x64_modern_fast:
...
 43/79	09:16	 8 189 274k	14 709k	+0,01	20.Rb7+ Kd6 21.Rh7 Rc4 22.Rh6 Kd7 23.Rh3 Rf4 24.b4 Ng5 25.Rg3 Ne4 26.Rd3+ Kc6 27.Kb3 Rf2 28.h3 Rh2 29.Re3 Kd5 30.Ka4 Nd6 31.Rd3+ Kc6 32.Rg3 Rh1 33.Rf3 Rh2 34.Kb3 Ne4 35.Rd3 Nd2+ 36.Ka4 Nc4 37.Rg3 Nd6 38.Kb3 Ne4 39.Rg6+ Kd5 40.Rh6 Nd2+ 41.Ka4 Nb1 42.b5 Nxc3+ 43.Kb4 Ne4 44.a4 Rb2+ 45.Ka5 Ra2 46.Rh5+ Kc4 47.Rh4 Kd5 48.Kb4 Ra1 49.Ka5
 43/79	09:16	 8 189 274k	14 709k	+0,29	20.Rh5 Rc4 21.Kb3 Rf4 22.a4 Kd6 23.Ka3 Nc5 24.Rh6+ Kd7 25.Rh7+ Kd6 26.b4 Ne4 27.Rh3 Kc6 28.Kb3 Nd2+ 29.Kc2 Ne4 30.Rh8 Kd5 31.a5 Kc4 32.Rc8+ Kb5 33.Kd3 Rh4 34.Rb8+ Ka6 35.Rb6+ Ka7 36.Re6 Nf2+ 37.Kc2 Ne4 38.h3 Ng5 39.Re7+ Ka6 40.Rg7 Nf3 41.Rg6+ Ka7 42.Rg3 Ne5 43.Kd2 Nc4+ 44.Ke2 Nb2 45.Ke3 Ka6 46.Kf2 Na4 47.Ke1 Nb2 48.Rf3 Kb5 49.Kd2 Nc4+ 50.Kc2 Rh8 51.Rd3 Rh4 52.Kb3 Ka6 53.Rg3 Ka7 54.Ka4 Nb2+ 55.Ka3 Nc4+ 56.Kb3 Ka6 57.Rg6+ Ka7 58.Rg7+ Ka6
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 44/79	12:28	 10 955 507k	14 629k	+0,05	20.Rb7+ Kd6 21.Rh7 Rc4 22.Rh6 Kd7 23.Rh5 Kc6 24.Rh3 Rf4 25.b4 Ng5 26.Rh6+ Kc7 27.Kb3 Ne4 28.Rh7+ Kb6 29.Rh3 Nd2+ 30.Kc2 Nc4 31.a4 Rf2+ 32.Kd3 Nb2+ 33.Ke3 Rf6 34.a5+ Kb5 35.Rh7 Kc4 36.Rc7+ Kb3 37.Kd4 Nc4 38.Rh7 Rf4+ 39.Kd5 Rf5+ 40.Ke6 Re5+ 41.Kf6 Kxc3 42.a6 Kxb4 43.a7 Ra5 44.h4 Ra6+ 45.Kg5 Nd6 46.h5 Ne4+ 47.Kh4 Kb5 48.h6 Kc6
 44/79	12:28	 10 955 507k	14 629k	+0,29	20.Rh5 Rc4 21.Kb3 Rf4 22.a4 Kd6 23.Ka3 Nc5 24.Rh6+ Kd7 25.Rh7+ Kd6 26.b4 Ne4 27.Rh3 Kc6 28.Kb3 Nd2+ 29.Kc2 Ne4 30.Rh8 Kd5 31.a5 Kc4 32.Rc8+ Kb5 33.Kd3 Rh4 34.Rb8+ Ka6 35.Rb6+ Ka7 36.Re6 Nf2+ 37.Kc2 Ne4 38.h3 Ng5 39.Re5 Nf3 40.Rf5 Rxh3 41.b5 Ne1+ 42.Kb3 Nd3 43.Rf7+ Ka8 44.Rf8+ Ka7 45.Rf5 Kb7 46.Rd5 Nc1+ 47.Kb2 Ne2 48.Rc5 Nf4 49.Rf5 Nd3+ 50.Kc2 Ne1+ 51.Kd2 Nd3 52.Rd5

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2r5/4k3/4n3/1R6/8/P1P5/KP5P/8 w - - 1 20

From the latest developmental Stockfish, with 6-man syzygy tables:

Code: Select all

info depth 60 seldepth 102 multipv 1 score cp 6 nodes 824997191223 nps 48885304 hashfull 999 tbhits 9777832325 time 16876180 pv b5h5 c8c4 a2b3 c4f4 a3a4 e7d6 h5h6 d6d7 b3a3 e6c5 b2b4 c5e4 h6h7 d7d6 h7h3 d6c6 a3b3 e4d2 b3c2 d2e4 h3h8 c6d5 a4a5 d5c4 h8c8 c4b5 c2d3 f4h4 c8b8 b5a6 b8b6 a6a7 b6e6 e4f2 d3c2 f2e4 h2h3 e4g5 e6e8 a7a6 e8g8 g5f3 g8g6 a6a7 g6g3 f3e5 c2d2 a7b7 d2e2 b7c6 e2f2 h4f4 f2g2 f4c4 g2f1 c4f4 f1e1 f4h4 e1e2 h4h8 e2f2 h8h4 f2g1 h4e4 g3g8 c6b7 g1f1 e4f4 f1e2 f4h4 g8g5 e5c6 g5g7 b7a6 g7g3 c6a7 e2d2 a6b5 g3g7 b5a6 g7e7 h4h3 e7c7 a7b5 c7c6 a6a7 c6c5 b5d6 c5c7 a7b8 c7c6 d6e4 d2c2 b8a7 b4b5 h3h2 c2d3

Paloma · Post by **Paloma** » Mon May 30, 2016 9:48 pm

@ Peter Martan

[Event "?"] 
[Site "?"] 
[Date "????.??.??"] 
[Round "?"] 
[White "W"] 
[Black "B"] 
[Result "*"] 
[Annotator "Martan,Peter"] 
[FEN "2r1k2r/4qpp1/p3p2p/1pn1P3/3N2P1/P7/1PP3QP/1K1R2R1 w k - 0 1"] 
[SetUp "1"] 
 
1.Nf5 { ! } { [%eval 115,44] } ( 1.h4 { [%eval 46,39] } 1...g6 { [%eval 61,33] } 2.Qd2 { [%eval 66,35] } 2...Nd7 { [%eval 52,34] } 3.Rgf1 h5 4.Qa5 Nc5 5.Rf4 Qc7 6.Qd2 Rd8 7.Qf2 hxg4 8.Rxg4 Rd5 9.Rf1 Rf8 10.Nf3 Nd7 11.Re4 Qc5 12.Qg2 Qc6 13.Re2 Rxe5 14.Nxe5 Qxg2 15.Rxg2 Nxe5 16.Rg5 f6 17.Rg3 Ke7 18.Re1 { [%eval 81,37] } ) ( 1.g5 hxg5 2.Nf3 Qb7 3.Rdf1 g6 4.Nxg5 Qxg2 5.Rxg2 Rc7 6.Rf4 Nb7 7.h4 Nd8 8.Rgf2 a5 9.R2f3 Rh5 10.b3 Rh8 { [%eval 55,33] } ) 1...exf5 { [%eval 107, 40] } 2.gxf5 { [%eval 97,40] } 2...f6 { [%eval 110,43] } ( 2...Rg8 3.Rd5 { !? } ( 3.e6 { ?! } 3...fxe6 4.fxe6 g5 { !? } ( 4...g6 5.Rgf1 a5 6.Rde1 b4 7.Qg3 Nxe6 8.Rxe6 Qxe6 9.Re1 Kd7 10.Rxe6 Kxe6 11.axb4 axb4 12.Qg4+ Kf7 13.Qxb4 { +/- } ) 5.Rge1 g4 { [%emt 0:00:08] } ) 3...g5 ( 3...Qc7 $6 4.Re1 g6 5.Re3 Kf8 ( 5...Rd8 $2 6.Rxd8+ Kxd8 7.Qa8+ { ! } ( 7.Qd5+ Kc8 8.Rc3 Rd8 9.Qxc5 Qxc5 10.Rxc5+ Kb7 { +/- } ) 7...Qc8 8.Qd5+ Ke8 9.f6 { [%eval 752,30] } ) 6.e6 { [%eval 140,33] } ) ( 3...g6 $6 4.Rgd1 Qc7 5.Rd6 { [%eval 111,33] } ) 4.Qh3 Na4 5.Qxh6 Qc7 6.Rc1 Nb6 ( 6...Nxb2 7.Kxb2 Qc3+ { [%eval 73,33] } ) 7.Rd4 Qc5 8.c3 Nc4 ( 8...Qxe5 { [%eval 92,33] } ) 9.Qh7 Rf8 10.e6 Qe5 11.f6 Qxe6 12.Rcd1 Qxf6 13.Re4+ Ne5 14.Qh3 { [%eval 125,35] } ) 3.exf6 { [%eval 97,46] } 3...Qxf6 { [%eval 122,43] } 4.Qd5 { [%eval 110,45] } 4...Kf8 { [%eval 121,41] } 5.Rg6 { [%eval 112,44] } 5...Qf7 { [%eval 122, 41] } 6.Qd6+ { [%eval 106,43] } 6...Kg8 { [%eval 122,38] } 7.Rdg1 { [%eval 118,43] } 7...Rh7 { [%eval 121,40] } 8.f6 { [%eval 105,40] } 8...Ne6 { [%eval 119,40] } 9.Qxa6 { [%eval 102,38] } 9...Qd7 { [%eval 120,38] } 10.Qb6 { [%eval 115,36] } 10...Re8 { [%eval 131,36] } 11.h4 { [%eval 113,38] } 11...h5 ( 11...Kh8 { [%eval 137,35] } 12.Qf2 { [%eval 127,35] } 12...Rf8 { [%eval 133,35] } ( 12...gxf6 13.Qf5 Qd8 14.Rxf6 Ng7 15.Qf3 Qe7 16.Rf1 Rg8 17.Qc3 { +?- } ) 13.Qf5 { [%eval 125,37] } 13...Qf7 { [%eval 141,38] } 14.fxg7+ { [%eval 136,42] } 14...Nxg7 { [%eval 160,35] } 15.Qxb5 { [%eval 135,40] } 15...Nf5 { [%eval 133,41] } 16.a4 { [%eval 148,40] } 16...Rg7 { [%eval 156,39] } 17.Rxg7 { [%eval 127,37] } 17...Nxg7 { [%eval 154,34] } 18.Qc6 { [%eval 142,35] +/- } ) 12.Qe3 Qc7 13.Qe4 Qf7 14.Qd5 Rd8 15.Qxb5 Rd1+ 16.Rxd1 Qxg6 17.Rd6 Nf8 18.Qc6 { [%eval 124,36] }

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Tue May 31, 2016 12:47 am

Paloma wrote:@ Peter Martan
[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "W"] [Black "B"] [Result "*"] [Annotator "Martan,Peter"] [FEN "2r1k2r/4qpp1/p3p2p/1pn1P3/3N2P1/P7/1PP3QP/1K1R2R1 w k - 0 1"] [SetUp "1"] 1.Nf5 { ! } { [%eval 115,44] } ( 1.h4 { [%eval 46,39] } 1...g6 { [%eval 61,33] } 2.Qd2 { [%eval 66,35] } 2...Nd7 { [%eval 52,34] } 3.Rgf1 h5 4.Qa5 Nc5 5.Rf4 Qc7 6.Qd2 Rd8 7.Qf2 hxg4 8.Rxg4 Rd5 9.Rf1 Rf8 10.Nf3 Nd7 11.Re4 Qc5 12.Qg2 Qc6 13.Re2 Rxe5 14.Nxe5 Qxg2 15.Rxg2 Nxe5 16.Rg5 f6 17.Rg3 Ke7 18.Re1 { [%eval 81,37] } ) ( 1.g5 hxg5 2.Nf3 Qb7 3.Rdf1 g6 4.Nxg5 Qxg2 5.Rxg2 Rc7 6.Rf4 Nb7 7.h4 Nd8 8.Rgf2 a5 9.R2f3 Rh5 10.b3 Rh8 { [%eval 55,33] } ) 1...exf5 { [%eval 107, 40] } 2.gxf5 { [%eval 97,40] } 2...f6 { [%eval 110,43] } ( 2...Rg8 3.Rd5 { !? } ( 3.e6 { ?! } 3...fxe6 4.fxe6 g5 { !? } ( 4...g6 5.Rgf1 a5 6.Rde1 b4 7.Qg3 Nxe6 8.Rxe6 Qxe6 9.Re1 Kd7 10.Rxe6 Kxe6 11.axb4 axb4 12.Qg4+ Kf7 13.Qxb4 { +/- } ) 5.Rge1 g4 { [%emt 0:00:08] } ) 3...g5 ( 3...Qc7 $6 4.Re1 g6 5.Re3 Kf8 ( 5...Rd8 $2 6.Rxd8+ Kxd8 7.Qa8+ { ! } ( 7.Qd5+ Kc8 8.Rc3 Rd8 9.Qxc5 Qxc5 10.Rxc5+ Kb7 { +/- } ) 7...Qc8 8.Qd5+ Ke8 9.f6 { [%eval 752,30] } ) 6.e6 { [%eval 140,33] } ) ( 3...g6 $6 4.Rgd1 Qc7 5.Rd6 { [%eval 111,33] } ) 4.Qh3 Na4 5.Qxh6 Qc7 6.Rc1 Nb6 ( 6...Nxb2 7.Kxb2 Qc3+ { [%eval 73,33] } ) 7.Rd4 Qc5 8.c3 Nc4 ( 8...Qxe5 { [%eval 92,33] } ) 9.Qh7 Rf8 10.e6 Qe5 11.f6 Qxe6 12.Rcd1 Qxf6 13.Re4+ Ne5 14.Qh3 { [%eval 125,35] } ) 3.exf6 { [%eval 97,46] } 3...Qxf6 { [%eval 122,43] } 4.Qd5 { [%eval 110,45] } 4...Kf8 { [%eval 121,41] } 5.Rg6 { [%eval 112,44] } 5...Qf7 { [%eval 122, 41] } 6.Qd6+ { [%eval 106,43] } 6...Kg8 { [%eval 122,38] } 7.Rdg1 { [%eval 118,43] } 7...Rh7 { [%eval 121,40] } 8.f6 { [%eval 105,40] } 8...Ne6 { [%eval 119,40] } 9.Qxa6 { [%eval 102,38] } 9...Qd7 { [%eval 120,38] } 10.Qb6 { [%eval 115,36] } 10...Re8 { [%eval 131,36] } 11.h4 { [%eval 113,38] } 11...h5 ( 11...Kh8 { [%eval 137,35] } 12.Qf2 { [%eval 127,35] } 12...Rf8 { [%eval 133,35] } ( 12...gxf6 13.Qf5 Qd8 14.Rxf6 Ng7 15.Qf3 Qe7 16.Rf1 Rg8 17.Qc3 { +?- } ) 13.Qf5 { [%eval 125,37] } 13...Qf7 { [%eval 141,38] } 14.fxg7+ { [%eval 136,42] } 14...Nxg7 { [%eval 160,35] } 15.Qxb5 { [%eval 135,40] } 15...Nf5 { [%eval 133,41] } 16.a4 { [%eval 148,40] } 16...Rg7 { [%eval 156,39] } 17.Rxg7 { [%eval 127,37] } 17...Nxg7 { [%eval 154,34] } 18.Qc6 { [%eval 142,35] +/- } ) 12.Qe3 Qc7 13.Qe4 Qf7 14.Qd5 Rd8 15.Qxb5 Rd1+ 16.Rxd1 Qxg6 17.Rd6 Nf8 18.Qc6 { [%eval 124,36] } your webbrowser and/or your host do not support iframes as required to display the chess board

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5nk1/6pr/2QR1Pq1/7p/7P/P7/1PP5/1K6 b - - 3 18

Latest developmental Stockfish from position at end of PV above:

Code: Select all

+0.58 18... Qf7 19. b3 g5 20. a4 gxh4 21. a5 h3 22. a6 Qg6 23. f7+ Qxf7 24. Rf6 Qe7 25. Qd5+ Kh8 26. Rf5 Ng6 27. Qd4+ Kg8 28. Qb6 h2 29. Qb8+ Kg7 30. Qxh2 h4 31. Qh1 Qd7 32. Rd5 Qa7 33. Qf1 Rh8 34. Qd3 Qf2 35. Rf5 Qg1+ 36. Kb2 Re8 37. Qc3+ Kh6 38. Qd2+ Qe3 39. Qxe3+ Rxe3 40. b4 Re7 41. Ra5 Ne5 42. Kb3 Nc6 43. Ra1 Nd4+ 44. Kc3 Nb5+ 45. Kc4 Na7 46. Kc5 Rc7+ 47. Kb6 Rh7 48. b5 h3 49. Rh1 Kg6 50. c4 h2 51. Kc5 Rh5+ 52. Kd4 Rh4+ 53. Kd5 Rh5+ 54. Ke4 Rh4+ 55. Kd3 (depth 46, 2:20:03)

Werewolf · Post by **Werewolf** » Tue May 31, 2016 10:18 am

Vinvin wrote: For the second time : check the line !

As I made clear in my previous post, the line was checked.

Here is a position I'd call "semi-sound"

8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
	a	b	c	d	e	f	g	h

2q1r1k1/b1r2pp1/p4np1/2np4/1Q6/4PP1P/P1B1N1P1/1RBR1K2 b - - 0 1

Although I find 1...Nce4 to be best (the line is best as well), IDeA kicked up several other possibilities.

For example, 1...d4! is also strong clearing d5 for a knight.

1... d4 2. exd4 (2. Nxd4 Nd5) 2... Nd5 3. Qa5 Bb6 4. Rxb6 Nxb6 5. dxc5 Rxc5 6.Qxb6 Rxc2 7. Be3 Qc4 8. Re1 Qd3 9. Kf2 Rxa2

and black is clearly better.

peter · Post by **peter** » Tue May 31, 2016 12:47 pm

Hi Louis!

Here is a little Backward of your SF's output- variant with SF at 270'/move from 35th to 18...th move:

[Event "?"] 
[Site "?"] 
[Date "????.??.??"] 
[Round "?"] 
[White "W"] 
[Black "B"] 
[Result "*"] 
[Annotator "Martan,Peter"] 
[SetUp "1"] 
[FEN "5nk1/6pr/2QR1Pq1/7p/7P/P7/1PP5/1K6 b - - 0 18"] 
[PlyCount "35"] 
 
18... Qf7 {[%eval 124,38]} (18... Qg1+ 19. Ka2 Qa7 20. fxg7 Rxg7 21. a4 Rg4 22. 
b3 Rd4 23. Qg2+ Kh7 24. Rd5 Rxh4 25. a5 Qf7 26. a6 Rg4 27. Qd2 Kg8 28. Ra5 Qa7 
29. Qd5+ Kg7 30. Qe5+ Kg8 31. Qxh5 Rg6 32. Qd5+ Kg7 33. Qc4 Ne6 34. Kb2 Rg5 35. 
Rxg5+ Nxg5 36. Qc6 Nf7 37. b4 Nd8 38. Qd5 Nf7 39. Qb7 Qd4+ 40. Kb3 Qe3+ 41. c3 
Qe6+ 42. c4 Qe3+ 43. Ka4 Qe8+ 44. Ka5 Qe5+ 45. c5 Qa1+ 46. Kb6 Qf6+ 47. Qc6 
Qd8+ 48. Qc7 Qf6+ 49. Ka7 Qf1 50. c6 Kg6 51. Qb6 Nd6 52. c7 Qf6 53. Qc6 Qe6 54. 
b5 Kh7 55. Qxd6 Qc8 56. b6 Qg4 57. Qe7+ Kg6 58. Qg7+ Kh5 59. Qxg4+ Kxg4 60. 
c8=Q+ Kf3 61. b7 Kg2 62. b8=Q Kf1 63. Qh2 Ke1 64. Qc1# {[%emt 0:00:10] 1-0 (64) 
Stockfish 270516-Komodo}) 19. b3 {[%eval 77,39]} ({Stockfish 270516 64 POPCNT: 
} 19. a4 Rh6 20. a5 Rxf6 21. Rxf6 gxf6 22. a6 Ne6 23. a7 Qxa7 24. Qxe6+ Kg7 25. 
b4 Qg1+ 26. Ka2 Qg4 27. Qe1 f5 28. Qe5+ Kf7 29. b5 f4 30. Qc7+ Kg8 31. Kb3 f3 
32. b6 Qe6+ 33. Kb2 Qg4 34. Qd8+ Kf7 35. Qd5+ Ke7 36. Qc5+ Ke6 37. Qc6+ Ke7 38. 
Kb3 Qg3 39. Qc3 Qd6 40. Qg7+ Ke8 41. b7 Qb6+ 42. Kc3 f2 43. Qe5+ Kd7 44. Qf5+ 
Kd8 45. Qf8+ Kd7 46. b8=Q Qxb8 47. Qxb8 f1=Q 48. Qb7+ Ke6 49. Qc6+ Ke7 50. Qc5+ 
Kd7 {[%eval 124,38]}) 19... g5 {[%eval 210,40]} ({Stockfish 270516 64 POPCNT:}  
19... Rh6 20. fxg7 Rxd6 21. Qxd6 Qxg7 22. Qd5+ Qf7 23. Qg5+ Kh7 24. a4 Ne6 25. 
Qg3 Qf5 26. Kb2 Qf6+ 27. Ka2 Nd4 28. c3 Nc6 29. Kb2 Ne5 30. Qe3 Qf5 31. Ka3 Kg7 
32. a5 Nc6 33. Qg3+ Kf6 34. Qd6+ Qe6 35. Qc5 Qe7 36. Qxe7+ Kxe7 37. b4 Kd6 38. 
c4 Kc7 39. a6 Nd4 40. b5 Kb6 41. Kb4 Nc2+ 42. Ka4 Ne3 43. Kb3 Nf5 44. Kc3 { 
[%eval 77,39]}) 20. a4 {[%eval 172,42]} gxh4 {[%eval 165,40]} 21. a5 {[%eval 
157,42]} h3 {[%eval 213,41]} ({Stockfish 270516 64 POPCNT:} 21... Qg6 22. Qc4+ 
Rf7 23. Qxh4 Qg1+ 24. Kb2 Qg4 25. Qxg4+ hxg4 26. Rd4 Rxf6 27. Rxg4+ Kf7 28. b4 
Nd7 29. b5 Ke7 30. a6 Kd6 31. Rc4 Rf8 32. Rc6+ Ke5 33. Kb3 Rf1 34. c4 Ra1 35. 
Kc3 Ra2 36. Rc7 Kd6 37. Rb7 Nc5 38. Rb6+ Ke5 39. Rh6 Nd7 40. Rh5+ Kd6 41. Rh1 
Kc5 42. Kb3 Rf2 43. Rh5+ Kb6 44. Kb4 Rb2+ 45. Kc3 Rb1 46. Rh6+ Kc7 47. Kd4 Rd1+ 
48. Ke3 Re1+ 49. Kd2 Ra1 50. Rc6+ Kd8 51. Kc2 Ne5 52. Rd6+ Ke7 53. Rd4 Nd7 54. 
Kc3 Ke6 55. Rd3 Ke7 56. Kb4 Kd8 {[%eval 157,42]}) 22. a6 {[%eval 203,42]} Qg6 { 
[%eval 227,43]} 23. f7+ {[%eval 220,46]} Qxf7 {[%eval 206,49]} 24. Rf6 {[%eval 
206,48]} Qe7 {[%eval 206,45]} 25. Qd5+ {[%eval 231,47]} Kh8 {[%eval 231,44]} 
26. Rf5 {[%eval 219,47]} Ng6 {[%eval 223,41]} 27. Qd4+ {[%eval 231,43]} Kg8 { 
[%eval 230,38]} 28. Qb6 {[%eval 209,44]} h2 {[%eval 229,37]} 29. Qb8+ {[%eval 
209,39]} Kg7 {[%eval 183,37]} 30. Qxh2 {[%eval 149,40]} h4 {[%eval 230,37]} ({ 
Stockfish 270516 64 POPCNT:} 30... Rh8 31. Qd2 {[%eval 149,40]}) 31. Qh1 { 
[%eval 220,38]} Qd7 {[%eval 402,34]} ({Stockfish 270516 64 POPCNT:} 31... Qa7 
32. Qf3 {[%eval 220,38]}) 32. Rd5 {[%eval 372,38]} Qa7 {[%eval 266,36]} 33. Qf1 
{[%eval 143,43]} ({Stockfish 270516 64 POPCNT:} 33. Qd1 Qxa6 34. Rd7+ Kh8 35. 
Rd6 Qa5 36. Rxg6 Ra7 37. Qd4+ Kh7 38. Re6 Qa2+ 39. Kc1 Qa1+ 40. Qxa1 Rxa1+ 41. 
Kb2 Ra5 42. b4 Rh5 43. Re1 Kg6 44. c4 h3 45. b5 Rh4 46. Kb3 h2 47. Rh1 Kf5 48. 
b6 Rh8 49. Kc3 Ke5 50. b7 Rb8 51. Rxh2 Rxb7 52. Rd2 Ke6 53. c5 Rc7 54. Kc4 Rc8 
55. Kb5 Rb8+ 56. Ka5 Rc8 57. Kb6 Rb8+ 58. Kc6 Rh8 59. Kb7 Rh7+ 60. Kb6 Rh3 61. 
c6 {[%eval 266,36]}) 33... Rh8 {[%eval 143,41]} 34. Qd3 {[%eval 148,41]} Qf2 { 
[%eval 157,36]} 35. Rf5 {[%eval 81,35]} Qg1+ {[%eval 137,33]} *

Quoting the posting bring's up evals too

yanquis1972 · Post by **yanquis1972** » Tue May 31, 2016 1:18 pm

dadij wrote:
Eelco de Groot wrote: By coincidence, that is where I got stuck as well, I am leaning towards a draw but Serpent's eval is still 1.25 here after 16...Rc6. Probably 16. Rg5 Qe1 is the better defence instead of 16. Rg5 Rc6. And I don't have the Syzygy tablebases, let alone Lomonosov that you could probably use to good advantage so maybe someone with tablebases can give an easy answer?

New line using Dadi's Kf7 and 16...Qe1 :
The line you give is correct. My IDeA score after 1.Nf5 is +0.07. Your line can continue: 20...Rc4 21.Kb3 Rf4 and now either 22.a4 or 22.c4. The latest Stockfish should give something close to 0.00 here with 6-piece tablebases.

when should we see aquarium 2016? i like to switch up GUIs every now & then, would be nice to have an excuse to go back to aquarium.

peter · Post by **peter** » Tue May 31, 2016 4:17 pm

Vinvin wrote:After back and forth analyses (just before 20.Rh5), it seems to be drawish

Indeed.
Yet that still doesn't prove any other move than 1.Nf5 to be better.
But for a classical tactical best move position the winning line is missing

dadij · Post by **dadij** » Tue May 31, 2016 11:32 pm

yanquis1972 wrote: when should we see aquarium 2016? i like to switch up GUIs every now & then, would be nice to have an excuse to go back to aquarium.

Very soon, I think.

Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN

Re: Hard talkchess 2016 set in PGN