POLL:Man vs Machine ?

[Sedat Canbaz]

Hello Chess Friends,

For nowadays, what will be the Elo difference between Top MP Engines vs Top GM Players ?
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/pollman-vs-machine/

I mean,if we run Top MP Engines at 40/120 (Rybka,Houdini,Critter on latest fast hardwares)
against Top Human GM Players (e.g Kasparov,Kramnik,Carlsen,Topalov,Anand...)

1)More than 500 Elo
2)Less than 500 Elo



Thanks in advance,
Sedat Canbaz

[MM]

Hello Chess Friends,

For nowadays, what will be the Elo difference between Top MP Engines vs Top GM Players ?
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/pollman-vs-machine/

I mean,if we run Top MP Engines at 40/120 (Rybka,Houdini,Critter on latest fast hardwares)
against Top Human GM Players (e.g Kasparov,Kramnik,Carlsen,Topalov,Anand...)

1)More than 500 Elo
2)Less than 500 Elo



Thanks in advance,
Sedat Canbaz

Hi Sedat,

i know it's a commonplace that (not only) top engines are stronger than top GMs.

I don't want to say what i think about it, i already did it and i know i go against the tide.

I just ask you if you considered the possibility to create a poll with several ranges:

for example +-50 elo; +-100 elo ect.

I think it would be better.

Thank you.


Best Regards

[Don]

Hello Chess Friends,

For nowadays, what will be the Elo difference between Top MP Engines vs Top GM Players ?
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/pollman-vs-machine/

I mean,if we run Top MP Engines at 40/120 (Rybka,Houdini,Critter on latest fast hardwares)
against Top Human GM Players (e.g Kasparov,Kramnik,Carlsen,Topalov,Anand...)

1)More than 500 Elo
2)Less than 500 Elo



Thanks in advance,
Sedat Canbaz

Sedat,

MP could mean anything. I think 1 core is a more interesting question but if you want to ask the question you should be much more specific, for example this would be better wording:

What will be the Elo difference between Top MP Engines running on quad core i7 hardware vs Top GM Players ?

I believe you will find a great deal of transitivity between humans and computers, much more so than humans vs humans so you may find that some humans are 300 ELO stronger than computers relative to other equally high rated players. That's just my opinion. Maybe it's 100 or 200 ELO but I'm sure there is a big difference between some humans and others.

[MM]

Hello Chess Friends,

For nowadays, what will be the Elo difference between Top MP Engines vs Top GM Players ?
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/pollman-vs-machine/

I mean,if we run Top MP Engines at 40/120 (Rybka,Houdini,Critter on latest fast hardwares)
against Top Human GM Players (e.g Kasparov,Kramnik,Carlsen,Topalov,Anand...)

1)More than 500 Elo
2)Less than 500 Elo



Thanks in advance,
Sedat Canbaz

Sedat,

MP could mean anything. I think 1 core is a more interesting question but if you want to ask the question you should be much more specific, for example this would be better wording:

What will be the Elo difference between Top MP Engines running on quad core i7 hardware vs Top GM Players ?

I believe you will find a great deal of transitivity between humans and computers, much more so than humans vs humans so you may find that some humans are 300 ELO stronger than computers relative to other equally high rated players. That's just my opinion. Maybe it's 100 or 200 ELO but I'm sure there is a big difference between some humans and others.

Yes Don,

some humans play much better against computers than other humans do (we always talk about same rating range players).

It mainly depends by the style of the human player.

If one is a tactical player, usually he likes complicated positions, often he plays sharp moves, sometimes he speculates on the opponent' mistakes.

This kind of human player (at least if he tries to play in this way against the computer) will score very bad against a machine.

If one is a positional/strategical player, usually plays solid, logical moves, probably will score much better against the computer.

Best Regards

[Sedat Canbaz]

Just i'd like to mention again and to make it more clear...

When i said, if we run the top engines on 'latest fast machines' i was not meaning about 1 core engines or quads or dual processors or 10 years old processors
Or i was not meaning that we will use the same engines which are played 10-15 yeas ago...
Or i was not meaning too what will be the Elo engine performance using own books...
Or i was not meaning also about Rybka Cluter's performance vs GMs

I mean especially for top engine performance on latest fastest i7 6 core or i7 12 core high-overclocked machines
Plus,in case of top mp engines are using superior private strong book

Actually it's not so hard to estimate about what will be the Elo points between Human vs Engines

And i can give you another example about the current issue

I think the bellow engines are around on the same level as Top GM of 2700-2800 Elo human points,right ?:
Chess Tiger 2007,Fritz in Bahrain,Rebel...

So...in other words,if we will start to test Chess Tiger 2007 engine against Rybka,Houdini,Critter
(i mean if we run the Top MP engines on latest i7 6 core or 12 core machines via Auto232 mode or via online)

And after a such test at 40/120,can we expect the Elo difference to be less than 500 Elo ?
For example,engine match between Houdini 2.0c x64 6 core against Chess Tiger 2007 w32 1c

Lets take as example SSDF rating,which is very useful for a such comparison:
http://ssdf.bosjo.net/list.htm

Code: Select all

Deep Rybka 4 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz   3216  32  -29  642  78%  3001
Chess Tiger 2007 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz   2786  22  -23  966  39%  2862

Note:the current SSDF Elo difference is 430 Elo,what will be the Rybka's Elo difference on 3 times faster machine ??

For example, if Rybka,Houdini Critter will be played on decent fast hardwares,e.g on i7 990X @ 4.60GHz
Note that in case of running MP engines, i7 990X @4.60 GHz is approx.3 times faster than Q6600 2.40GHz

That means you will get extra approx.130-150 Elo points

In other words,i expect the SSDF Rating to be:

Code: Select all

1.Houdini 2.0c Pro x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz 3400 Elo
2.Deep Rybka 4.1 x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz   3350 Elo
3.Critter 1.4 x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz      3350 Elo
4.Chess Tiger 2007 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz   2786 Elo

Btw,SCCT Auto232's rating has almost same Elo points

I really wonder too,in case of participating the Top Human GM in SSDF Rating (e.g Kasparov,Kramnik,Carlsen,Topalov,Anand... )
Probably then, i expect the Top Human Players would be rated around 2700-2850 SSDF Elo points !

More than 10 years ago,we noticed that even the top single processor engines are started to play on GM levels,here is another proof:


Note:the above red comparison table (which is based on around 2000 years) is quite good indicator
It show us that 2000 years engines are started to play with same level as Top GM of 2700-2800 Elo human points

More details::
-Now we are in 2012 that means the current top engines play much stronger than 2000 years engines
-Many of the Top Engines have been improved to play stronger approx.200-300 Elo points (in that period of time)
-Plus 10 yeas ago,the processors were much slower... .e.g in those years,Fritz Benchmark kns values were around 500-1000 kns
-But nowadays, (on latest fast i7 machines) Fritz Benchmark tool generates around 20.000 kns values

In my estimation,the engines which are rated about 2700-2850 Elo points (based on SSDF,CCRL,SCCT... ratings) are expected to be rated almost same level as Top GMs

Just i'd like to mention again that 10-12 years ago, the top engines elo performance were around 2650-2750 Elo points

But nowadays,i mean exactly the same engine versions are improved to play stronger at least 200-300 Elo points

In 10 (ten) years period of time,the processors are become at least 15-20 times more faster
That means the top mp engines can gain extra at least 350-400 Elo points

Just imagine in 2012...what will be Elo difference between Top MP Engines vs GMs

Actually our comments are just estimations...

The best answer:its will be great,if there will be a serious mach (played with many games) -Man vs Machine 2012

Personally i guess,the Top MP Engines will be performed more than 500 Elo

We should not forget to mention the opening book's factor (not only the hardware speed or engine strength can effect the engine's performance)

From my experience i can say that the opening book is the key,which is playing a very important role to reach high elo engine performance
Depending on what kind of opening book usage,the engines can be performed approx. 0-200 elo points or even more...

And last,remember also that even some 2200-2300 Elo chess engines can play draws vs the Top GMs of 2700-2800 Elo

Hope this helps...

Greetings,
Sedat

[Don]

Just i'd like to mention again and to make it more clear...

When i said, if we run the top engines on 'latest fast machines' i was not meaning about 1 core engines or quads or dual processors or 10 years old processors
Or i was not meaning that we will use the same engines which are played 10-15 yeas ago...
Or i was not meaning too what will be the Elo engine performance using own books...
Or i was not meaning also about Rybka Cluter's performance vs GMs

I mean especially for top engine performance on latest fastest i7 6 core or i7 12 core high-overclocked machines
Plus,in case of top mp engines are using superior private strong book

My point is that you didn't specify any of this before, so it was totally ambiguous. Now it's better that you are explicit. You still make it less clear by saying what it isn't, it's better to say what it is if you want to avoid confusion but at least now we have something clearer in order to understand what your question really was.

You should always bear in mind that when you say something YOU always know what you meant but that doesn't mean anyone else does.

Actually it's not so hard to estimate about what will be the Elo points between Human vs Engines

And i can give you another example about the current issue

I think the bellow engines are around on the same level as Top GM of 2700-2800 Elo human points,right ?:
Chess Tiger 2007,Fritz in Bahrain,Rebel...

So...in other words,if we will start to test Chess Tiger 2007 engine against Rybka,Houdini,Critter
(i mean if we run the Top MP engines on latest i7 6 core or 12 core machines via Auto232 mode or via online)

And after a such test at 40/120,can we expect the Elo difference to be less than 500 Elo ?
For example,engine match between Houdini 2.0c x64 6 core against Chess Tiger 2007 w32 1c

Lets take as example SSDF rating,which is very useful for a such comparison:
http://ssdf.bosjo.net/list.htm

Code: Select all

Deep Rybka 4 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz   3216  32  -29  642  78%  3001
Chess Tiger 2007 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz   2786  22  -23  966  39%  2862

Note:the current SSDF Elo difference is 430 Elo,what will be the Rybka's Elo difference on 3 times faster machine ??

For example, if Rybka,Houdini Critter will be played on decent fast hardwares,e.g on i7 990X @ 4.60GHz
Note that in case of running MP engines, i7 990X @4.60 GHz is approx.3 times faster than Q6600 2.40GHz

That means you will get extra approx.130-150 Elo points

In other words,i expect the SSDF Rating to be:

Code: Select all

1.Houdini 2.0c Pro x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz 3400 Elo
2.Deep Rybka 4.1 x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz   3350 Elo
3.Critter 1.4 x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz      3350 Elo
4.Chess Tiger 2007 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz   2786 Elo

Btw,SCCT Auto232's rating has almost same Elo points

I really wonder too,in case of participating the Top Human GM in SSDF Rating (e.g Kasparov,Kramnik,Carlsen,Topalov,Anand... )
Probably then, i expect the Top Human Players would be rated around 2700-2850 SSDF Elo points !

More than 10 years ago,we noticed that even the top single processor engines are started to play on GM levels,here is another proof:


Note:the above red comparison table (which is based on around 2000 years) is quite good indicator
It show us that 2000 years engines are started to play with same level as Top GM of 2700-2800 Elo human points

More details::
-Now we are in 2012 that means the current top engines play much stronger than 2000 years engines
-Many of the Top Engines have been improved to play stronger approx.200-300 Elo points (in that period of time)
-Plus 10 yeas ago,the processors were much slower... .e.g in those years,Fritz Benchmark kns values were around 500-1000 kns
-But nowadays, (on latest fast i7 machines) Fritz Benchmark tool generates around 20.000 kns values

In my estimation,the engines which are rated about 2700-2850 Elo points (based on SSDF,CCRL,SCCT... ratings) are expected to be rated almost same level as Top GMs

Just i'd like to mention again that 10-12 years ago, the top engines elo performance were around 2650-2750 Elo points

But nowadays,i mean exactly the same engine versions are improved to play stronger at least 200-300 Elo points

In 10 (ten) years period of time,the processors are become at least 15-20 times more faster
That means the top mp engines can gain extra at least 350-400 Elo points

Just imagine in 2012...what will be Elo difference between Top MP Engines vs GMs

Actually our comments are just estimations...

The best answer:its will be great,if there will be a serious mach (played with many games) -Man vs Machine 2012

Personally i guess,the Top MP Engines will be performed more than 500 Elo

We should not forget to mention the opening book's factor (not only the hardware speed or engine strength can effect the engine's performance)

From my experience i can say that the opening book is the key,which is playing a very important role to reach high elo engine performance
Depending on what kind of opening book usage,the engines can be performed approx. 0-200 elo points or even more...

And last,remember also that even some 2200-2300 Elo chess engines can play draws vs the Top GMs of 2700-2800 Elo

Hope this helps...

Greetings,
Sedat

[Sedat Canbaz]

My point is that you didn't specify any of this before, so it was totally ambiguous. Now it's better that you are explicit. You still make it less clear by saying what it isn't, it's better to say what it is if you want to avoid confusion but at least now we have something clearer in order to understand what your question really was.

You should always bear in mind that when you say something YOU always know what you meant but that doesn't mean anyone else does.

Actually we already discussed with Larry about this issue in Rybka chess forum

But anyway you are right ,next time i promise to be more clear

More details:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... 23398;pg=3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-comp ... ss_matches
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1229
http://www.rebel.nl/resu.htm

[MM]

Just i'd like to mention again and to make it more clear...

When i said, if we run the top engines on 'latest fast machines' i was not meaning about 1 core engines or quads or dual processors or 10 years old processors
Or i was not meaning that we will use the same engines which are played 10-15 yeas ago...
Or i was not meaning too what will be the Elo engine performance using own books...
Or i was not meaning also about Rybka Cluter's performance vs GMs

I mean especially for top engine performance on latest fastest i7 6 core or i7 12 core high-overclocked machines
Plus,in case of top mp engines are using superior private strong book

Actually it's not so hard to estimate about what will be the Elo points between Human vs Engines

And i can give you another example about the current issue

I think the bellow engines are around on the same level as Top GM of 2700-2800 Elo human points,right ?:
Chess Tiger 2007,Fritz in Bahrain,Rebel...

So...in other words,if we will start to test Chess Tiger 2007 engine against Rybka,Houdini,Critter
(i mean if we run the Top MP engines on latest i7 6 core or 12 core machines via Auto232 mode or via online)

And after a such test at 40/120,can we expect the Elo difference to be less than 500 Elo ?
For example,engine match between Houdini 2.0c x64 6 core against Chess Tiger 2007 w32 1c

Lets take as example SSDF rating,which is very useful for a such comparison:
http://ssdf.bosjo.net/list.htm

Code: Select all

Deep Rybka 4 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz   3216  32  -29  642  78%  3001
Chess Tiger 2007 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz   2786  22  -23  966  39%  2862

Note:the current SSDF Elo difference is 430 Elo,what will be the Rybka's Elo difference on 3 times faster machine ??

For example, if Rybka,Houdini Critter will be played on decent fast hardwares,e.g on i7 990X @ 4.60GHz
Note that in case of running MP engines, i7 990X @4.60 GHz is approx.3 times faster than Q6600 2.40GHz

That means you will get extra approx.130-150 Elo points

In other words,i expect the SSDF Rating to be:

Code: Select all

1.Houdini 2.0c Pro x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz 3400 Elo
2.Deep Rybka 4.1 x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz   3350 Elo
3.Critter 1.4 x64 6 core i7 990X @4.60 GHz      3350 Elo
4.Chess Tiger 2007 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz   2786 Elo

Btw,SCCT Auto232's rating has almost same Elo points

I really wonder too,in case of participating the Top Human GM in SSDF Rating (e.g Kasparov,Kramnik,Carlsen,Topalov,Anand... )
Probably then, i expect the Top Human Players would be rated around 2700-2850 SSDF Elo points !

More than 10 years ago,we noticed that even the top single processor engines are started to play on GM levels,here is another proof:


Note:the above red comparison table (which is based on around 2000 years) is quite good indicator
It show us that 2000 years engines are started to play with same level as Top GM of 2700-2800 Elo human points

More details::
-Now we are in 2012 that means the current top engines play much stronger than 2000 years engines
-Many of the Top Engines have been improved to play stronger approx.200-300 Elo points (in that period of time)
-Plus 10 yeas ago,the processors were much slower... .e.g in those years,Fritz Benchmark kns values were around 500-1000 kns
-But nowadays, (on latest fast i7 machines) Fritz Benchmark tool generates around 20.000 kns values

In my estimation,the engines which are rated about 2700-2850 Elo points (based on SSDF,CCRL,SCCT... ratings) are expected to be rated almost same level as Top GMs

Just i'd like to mention again that 10-12 years ago, the top engines elo performance were around 2650-2750 Elo points

But nowadays,i mean exactly the same engine versions are improved to play stronger at least 200-300 Elo points

In 10 (ten) years period of time,the processors are become at least 15-20 times more faster
That means the top mp engines can gain extra at least 350-400 Elo points

Just imagine in 2012...what will be Elo difference between Top MP Engines vs GMs

Actually our comments are just estimations...

The best answer:its will be great,if there will be a serious mach (played with many games) -Man vs Machine 2012

Personally i guess,the Top MP Engines will be performed more than 500 Elo

We should not forget to mention the opening book's factor (not only the hardware speed or engine strength can effect the engine's performance)

From my experience i can say that the opening book is the key,which is playing a very important role to reach high elo engine performance
Depending on what kind of opening book usage,the engines can be performed approx. 0-200 elo points or even more...

And last,remember also that even some 2200-2300 Elo chess engines can play draws vs the Top GMs of 2700-2800 Elo

Hope this helps...

Greetings,
Sedat

Hello Sedat,

i understand your point of view and respect totally your opinion but i see the things differently.

If i understood well, you match the strenght of the engines of the past with the actual engines and calculate the elo difference (and calculate the plus elo due to the hardware)

Basically, having that, you calculate the plus strenght of the engine against humans.

From my point of view it is not correct.

For example: if you set a match between Carlsen and a 1400 elo engine and a 1800 elo engine, probably Carlsen will score identically.

But there is 400 elo difference between the 2 engines.

I mean that the elo of the engines, in my opinion, is valid only for engines and cannot be compared to the elo of Humans for a simple reason:

with the exception of very rare events, humans and machines have a own life and never play the same tournaments.

If there was a circuit in which humans and software would play constantly together and we should have a huge difference in performance in favour of the machine i would agree with you.

But it's not the actual situation.

Basically i think that untill humans and machines will play together regularely in the tournaments, it is impossible to compare the strenght of the ones with the strenght of the others.

Thank you

Best Regards

[melajara]

Well, this would be quite an embarassing match for the humans, for their Egos, especially from the unforgiving judgement of the general public.

Now, even so, they would come to the chessboard if the prize money is proportioned to the expected humiliation.

Why not organizing such a match, e.g. a Round Robin with, say 5 humans to play 5 top notch programs for two games with colors reversed?

Prize could be $1'000'000 for overall winner if he's human or $500k for best human and $100k for best program (as programs would participate even for $10k )

For the funding, I propose to associate an online betting company (e.g. https://en.betclic.com/), the prize money would come from sponsors plus a fraction of the money engaged by bookmakers and a participation from the hosting website

[MM]

Well, this would be quite an embarassing match for the humans, for their Egos, especially from the unforgiving judgement of the general public.

Now, even so, they would come to the chessboard if the prize money is proportioned to the expected humiliation.

Why not organizing such a match, e.g. a Round Robin with, say 5 humans to play 5 top notch programs for two games with colors reversed?

For the funding, I propose to associate an online betting company (e.g. https://en.betclic.com/), the prize money would come from sponsors plus a fraction of the money engaged by bookmakers and a participation from the hosting website

I understand but i don't think that the majority of GMs thinks to be stronger than the top engines so i don't think it is a question of ego.

I just think that there are not interests in organizing an event like you described.
Why?
The humans players would certainly accept, they just need enough money.

So if someone has enough money, please jump out and let the party begin

Best Regards