I have a question in relation to one particular position:
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 43
which correspond to this game (after the move 43.Re2 of the white) :
[Event "VI Regina Helena Marques"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.05.17"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Bachmann, Axel"]
[Black "Campelo, Leandro"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A25"]
[WhiteElo "2519"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2008.05.17"]
[SourceDate "2008.05.20"]
1. c4 g6 2. g3 Bg7 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 e5 5. d3 Nc6 6. Rb1 a5 7. e3 Nf6 8. Nge2
O-O 9. O-O Be6 10. Nd5 Qd7 11. Nec3 Ne8 12. Re1 f5 13. a3 Nf6 14. b4 axb4 15.
axb4 Rab8 16. b5 Ne7 17. Bb2 Kh8 18. Qc2 Neg8 19. b6 c6 20. Nc7 Bf7 21. c5 d5
22. Ne2 Ne8 23. Nxe8 Rbxe8 24. Ra1 Nf6 25. Ra7 g5 26. Nc1 d4 27. Nb3 Bxb3 28.
Qxb3 dxe3 29. Rxe3 Ng4 30. Re1 f4 31. Rf1 fxg3 32. hxg3 Nf6 33. Qc4 h6 34. Re1
Ng8 35. Qe4 Qf7 36. Re2 Nf6 37. Qf5 Qb3 38. Rxb7 Qd1+ 39. Bf1 Nd5 40. Qg6 Ne7
41. Qe4 Nf5 42. Re1 Qc2 43. Re2 Qxc5 44. Qg4 Nd6 1-0
Most of the engines I tried chose the move move 43.....Qd1 as the best continuation for black. (I tried Fritz 10, Fritz 6, Fritz5, Strelka 2.0, Glaurung 2.1 (w32), Fruit 2.3.1, Prodeo 1.5, Rufian, Rybka 1.0 beta 32, and all of then chose 43... Qd1).
I found only two engines that chose a different move (which I believe is the right one), these are Crafty 20.14 and Arasan 10.1.
I think the move 43...Qd1 is a inferior continuation (as Crafty shows in its analysis), and maybe a BUG that several engines share.
So..which engines are correct?
Thanks.
(apologies for my English..)
Interesting position..
Moderator: Ras
-
pedrox
- Posts: 1056
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:07 am
- Location: Basque Country (Spain)
Re: Interesting position..
Hola Ricardo:
Creo que hay algo erróneo en tu posición o en tu análisis. El mejor movimiento con diferencia es Dxc5 y aún así las negras tienen la de perder. Todos los motores seguro que dan este movimiento como mejor.
New game
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. +- (2.21): 1...Qxc5 2.Qc4 Qb5 3.Bg2 Qxc4 4.dxc4 Nd6 5.Rc7 Nxc4 6.b7 c5 7.Rxc5 Nxb2 8.Rxb2 Rd8 9.Be4
2. +- (6.40): 1...Qb1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 g4 5.Qe4 h5 6.Re1 Qc2 7.d4 Qxe4 8.Rxe4 Kg6 9.Bb5 Re6 10.Rf4 Re7
3. +- (6.56): 1...Qb3 2.Rc7 h5 3.Qxc6 Re6 4.Qb7 Ree8 5.Rxg7 Nxg7 6.Bxe5 Rf7 7.Qc6 Kg8 8.d4 Re6 9.Qh1
(, 31.05.2008)
Creo que hay algo erróneo en tu posición o en tu análisis. El mejor movimiento con diferencia es Dxc5 y aún así las negras tienen la de perder. Todos los motores seguro que dan este movimiento como mejor.
New game
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. +- (2.21): 1...Qxc5 2.Qc4 Qb5 3.Bg2 Qxc4 4.dxc4 Nd6 5.Rc7 Nxc4 6.b7 c5 7.Rxc5 Nxb2 8.Rxb2 Rd8 9.Be4
2. +- (6.40): 1...Qb1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 g4 5.Qe4 h5 6.Re1 Qc2 7.d4 Qxe4 8.Rxe4 Kg6 9.Bb5 Re6 10.Rf4 Re7
3. +- (6.56): 1...Qb3 2.Rc7 h5 3.Qxc6 Re6 4.Qb7 Ree8 5.Rxg7 Nxg7 6.Bxe5 Rf7 7.Qc6 Kg8 8.d4 Re6 9.Qh1
(, 31.05.2008)
-
PerroMaster
Re: Interesting position..
Gracias Pedro, yo obtengo este resultado:
10: Bachmann,A - Campelo,L, VI Regina Helena Marques 2008
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. = (0.00): 43...Qd1
2. +- (1.70): 43...Qxc5 44.Qc4 Qb5 45.Qxb5 cxb5 46.Rxg7 Kxg7 47.Bxe5+ Kf7 48.b7 g4 49.d4 Rxe5 50.dxe5 Nd4 51.Ra2 Nf3+
3. +- (5.40): 43...Qb3 44.Qxc6 Rc8 45.Rc7 Rxc7 46.Qxc7 Rf7 47.Qc8+ Kh7 48.Bxe5 Nd4 49.Bxg7
Una observación importante: Obtengo este resultado solo cuando voy reproduciendo la partida desde el principio, y Fritz está en el modo de análisis, en cambio, cuando copio directamente la posición y arranco el motor de analis, obtengo este resultado:
New game
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. +- (1.70): 1...Qxc5 2.Qc4 Qb5 3.Qxb5 cxb5 4.Bh3 Nd4 5.Bxd4 exd4 6.Rb2 Rb8 7.Rxb8 Rxb8 8.Rxb5 Kg8 9.Be6+ Kf8 10.b7 Ke7 11.Rb6
2. +- (5.57): 1...Qb1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 Qxd3
3. +- (5.57): 1...Qd1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 Qxd3 5.b7 Qb3 6.Qc7+ Re7 7.b8Q Qxb8 8.Qxb8 Rxb8
que es lo que debería ser.
No se si será un error propio de mi computadora.
Me di cuenta del esto al hacer el análisis completo de la partida:
[Event "VI Regina Helena Marques"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.05.17"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Bachmann, Axel"]
[Black "Campelo, Leandro"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A25"]
[WhiteElo "2519"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[Annotator "Strelka 2.0 B (10s)"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2008.05.17"]
[SourceDate "2008.05.20"]
{A26: Apertura Inglesa contra la India de Rey: líneas con ... Cc6 y d3} 1. c4
g6 2. g3 Bg7 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 e5 5. d3 Nc6 6. Rb1 a5 7. e3 Nf6 8. Nge2 O-O 9.
O-O Be6 10. Nd5 Qd7 {ultima jugada del libro} 11. Nec3 Ne8 (11... Rfb8 12. Qa4
$14) 12. Re1 (12. Qb3 Rb8 $14) 12... f5 (12... Nb4 13. Bf3 $14) 13. a3 Nf6 14.
b4 (14. Qb3 $142 $5 Rfb8 15. Qa4 $14) 14... axb4 $11 15. axb4 Rab8 (15... e4 $5
$11 {vale la pena echarle un vistazo}) 16. b5 $14 {El Blanco gana espacio} Ne7
17. Bb2 Kh8 (17... Nexd5 18. cxd5 (18. Bxd5 $143 Bxd5 19. cxd5 f4 $15) 18...
Bf7 19. Qa4 $14) 18. Qc2 Neg8 (18... Nexd5 19. cxd5 Bf7 20. Ra1 $14) 19. b6 c6
20. Nc7 Bf7 21. c5 (21. Ra1 Ne8 22. Nxe8 Rfxe8 $16) 21... d5 (21... Ne7 22. Ra1
$14) 22. Ne2 Ne8 23. Nxe8 Rbxe8 24. Ra1 Nf6 25. Ra7 g5 26. Nc1 (26. Rea1 e4 $16
) 26... d4 {Este avance gana espacio} 27. Nb3 Bxb3 28. Qxb3 dxe3 29. Rxe3 Ng4 {
el Negro planea f4} (29... Nd5 30. Re1 f4 31. Qc4 $14) 30. Re1 (30. Re2 e4 31.
dxe4 fxe4 32. Bxg7+ Kxg7 33. Qc3+ Kh6 $16) 30... f4 31. Rf1 fxg3 32. hxg3 (32.
fxg3 Rxf1+ 33. Bxf1 Rf8 $19) 32... Nf6 33. Qc4 h6 34. Re1 Ng8 (34... Nd5 35.
Re2 $16) 35. Qe4 Qf7 36. Re2 Nf6 (36... Re7 37. Qa4 $18) 37. Qf5 Qb3 $4 {
el Negro cae} (37... Re7 $142 $18) 38. Rxb7 Qd1+ (38... Nd5 {
un infructuoso intento para alterar el curso de la partida} 39. Qg6 Ne7 40. Qe4
$18) 39. Bf1 Nd5 40. Qg6 Ne7 41. Qe4 Nf5 42. Re1 (42. Rxg7 $142 {
y el resto es cuestión de técnica} Kxg7 43. Bxe5+ (43. Qxc6 Nxg3 44. Qd7+ Kh8
$19) 43... Kh7 44. b7 $18) 42... Qc2 43. Re2 $4 {lo fastidia todo} (43. Ba1 $5
{mantiene incluso un dominio más firme} Re7 44. Rc7 Rxc7 45. bxc7 Qxc5 $18)
43... Qxc5 $4 {con esta jugada el Negro pierde la iniciativa} (43... Qd1 44.
Rxg7 Nxg7 45. Bxe5 Rxe5 46. Qxe5 Qb3 $18) 44. Qg4 (44. Qc4 $142 $5 Qxc4 45.
dxc4 Rb8 46. Rxb8 Rxb8 $18) 44... Nd6 (44... Rd8 45. Qc4 Qxc4 46. dxc4 $18) 1-0
Este error no se produce cuando analiza Crafty:
[Event "VI Regina Helena Marques"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.05.17"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Bachmann, Axel"]
[Black "Campelo, Leandro"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A26"]
[WhiteElo "2519"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[Annotator "Crafty 20.14 (10s)"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2008.05.17"]
[SourceDate "2008.05.20"]
{A26: Apertura Inglesa contra la India de Rey: líneas con ... Cc6 y d3} 1. c4
g6 2. g3 Bg7 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 e5 5. d3 Nc6 6. Rb1 a5 7. e3 Nf6 8. Nge2 {
ultima jugada del libro} O-O 9. O-O Be6 10. Nd5 Qd7 11. Nec3 Ne8 12. Re1 f5 13.
a3 {Consolida b4} Nf6 14. b4 axb4 15. axb4 Rab8 16. b5 {
El Blanco obtiene más espacio} Ne7 17. Bb2 Kh8 (17... Bxd5 18. cxd5 f4 19. Rf1
$11) 18. Qc2 (18. Nxe7 Qxe7 19. Ra1 e4 $14) 18... Neg8 (18... Bxd5 19. Nxd5
Nexd5 20. cxd5 $11) 19. b6 c6 {Cubre b5} 20. Nc7 {Amenazando} Bf7 21. c5 d5 22.
Ne2 Ne8 23. Nxe8 Rbxe8 24. Ra1 Nf6 25. Ra7 {! Loado la torre!} g5 26. Nc1 d4 {
Este avance gana espacio} 27. Nb3 Bxb3 28. Qxb3 dxe3 (28... f4 29. exf4 exf4
30. Qb4 $11) 29. Rxe3 $14 Ng4 {el Negro prepara f4} 30. Re1 f4 {
El Negro amplía su espacio} 31. Rf1 fxg3 32. hxg3 (32. fxg3 Rxf1+ 33. Bxf1 Qf5
$17) 32... Nf6 33. Qc4 h6 (33... Re7 34. Qc1 h6 35. Qc4 $14) 34. Re1 $16 Ng8
35. Qe4 Qf7 36. Re2 Nf6 (36... Re7 $5 $16) 37. Qf5 $18 Qb3 $4 {
el último error, no el más importante} (37... Re7 $142 $18) 38. Rxb7 Qd1+ (
38... Nd5 {no puede cambiar el destino} 39. Bxe5 Rxe5 40. Qg6 $18) 39. Bf1 Nd5
40. Qg6 Ne7 41. Qe4 Nf5 42. Re1 (42. Qg2 $142 $18 {
y el Blanco se lleva el punto a casa}) 42... Qc2 43. Re2 Qxc5 44. Qg4 (44. Qc4
Qxc4 45. dxc4 Rb8 46. Rxb8 Rxb8 $18) 44... Nd6 (44... Rd8 45. Qc4 Qxc4 46. dxc4
Rd1 $18) 1-0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explanation in English of the Spanish writing above :
I got this analysis result when I reproduce the game form the beginnings and the engine is running (in analysis mode)
10: Bachmann,A - Campelo,L, VI Regina Helena Marques 2008
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. = (0.00): 43...Qd1
2. +- (1.70): 43...Qxc5 44.Qc4 Qb5 45.Qxb5 cxb5 46.Rxg7 Kxg7 47.Bxe5+ Kf7 48.b7 g4 49.d4 Rxe5 50.dxe5 Nd4 51.Ra2 Nf3+
3. +- (5.40): 43...Qb3 44.Qxc6 Rc8 45.Rc7 Rxc7 46.Qxc7 Rf7 47.Qc8+ Kh7 48.Bxe5 Nd4 49.Bxg7
But when I jazz copy this position on Fritz an start the engine, I got this result (for the same position):
New game
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. +- (1.70): 1...Qxc5 2.Qc4 Qb5 3.Qxb5 cxb5 4.Bh3 Nd4 5.Bxd4 exd4 6.Rb2 Rb8 7.Rxb8 Rxb8 8.Rxb5 Kg8 9.Be6+ Kf8 10.b7 Ke7 11.Rb6
2. +- (5.57): 1...Qb1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 Qxd3
3. +- (5.57): 1...Qd1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 Qxd3 5.b7 Qb3 6.Qc7+ Re7 7.b8Q Qxb8 8.Qxb8 Rxb8
Crafty do not produce this effect.
I don't know if it is jazz a problem of my particular computer..
10: Bachmann,A - Campelo,L, VI Regina Helena Marques 2008
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. = (0.00): 43...Qd1
2. +- (1.70): 43...Qxc5 44.Qc4 Qb5 45.Qxb5 cxb5 46.Rxg7 Kxg7 47.Bxe5+ Kf7 48.b7 g4 49.d4 Rxe5 50.dxe5 Nd4 51.Ra2 Nf3+
3. +- (5.40): 43...Qb3 44.Qxc6 Rc8 45.Rc7 Rxc7 46.Qxc7 Rf7 47.Qc8+ Kh7 48.Bxe5 Nd4 49.Bxg7
Una observación importante: Obtengo este resultado solo cuando voy reproduciendo la partida desde el principio, y Fritz está en el modo de análisis, en cambio, cuando copio directamente la posición y arranco el motor de analis, obtengo este resultado:
New game
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. +- (1.70): 1...Qxc5 2.Qc4 Qb5 3.Qxb5 cxb5 4.Bh3 Nd4 5.Bxd4 exd4 6.Rb2 Rb8 7.Rxb8 Rxb8 8.Rxb5 Kg8 9.Be6+ Kf8 10.b7 Ke7 11.Rb6
2. +- (5.57): 1...Qb1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 Qxd3
3. +- (5.57): 1...Qd1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 Qxd3 5.b7 Qb3 6.Qc7+ Re7 7.b8Q Qxb8 8.Qxb8 Rxb8
que es lo que debería ser.
No se si será un error propio de mi computadora.
Me di cuenta del esto al hacer el análisis completo de la partida:
[Event "VI Regina Helena Marques"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.05.17"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Bachmann, Axel"]
[Black "Campelo, Leandro"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A25"]
[WhiteElo "2519"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[Annotator "Strelka 2.0 B (10s)"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2008.05.17"]
[SourceDate "2008.05.20"]
{A26: Apertura Inglesa contra la India de Rey: líneas con ... Cc6 y d3} 1. c4
g6 2. g3 Bg7 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 e5 5. d3 Nc6 6. Rb1 a5 7. e3 Nf6 8. Nge2 O-O 9.
O-O Be6 10. Nd5 Qd7 {ultima jugada del libro} 11. Nec3 Ne8 (11... Rfb8 12. Qa4
$14) 12. Re1 (12. Qb3 Rb8 $14) 12... f5 (12... Nb4 13. Bf3 $14) 13. a3 Nf6 14.
b4 (14. Qb3 $142 $5 Rfb8 15. Qa4 $14) 14... axb4 $11 15. axb4 Rab8 (15... e4 $5
$11 {vale la pena echarle un vistazo}) 16. b5 $14 {El Blanco gana espacio} Ne7
17. Bb2 Kh8 (17... Nexd5 18. cxd5 (18. Bxd5 $143 Bxd5 19. cxd5 f4 $15) 18...
Bf7 19. Qa4 $14) 18. Qc2 Neg8 (18... Nexd5 19. cxd5 Bf7 20. Ra1 $14) 19. b6 c6
20. Nc7 Bf7 21. c5 (21. Ra1 Ne8 22. Nxe8 Rfxe8 $16) 21... d5 (21... Ne7 22. Ra1
$14) 22. Ne2 Ne8 23. Nxe8 Rbxe8 24. Ra1 Nf6 25. Ra7 g5 26. Nc1 (26. Rea1 e4 $16
) 26... d4 {Este avance gana espacio} 27. Nb3 Bxb3 28. Qxb3 dxe3 29. Rxe3 Ng4 {
el Negro planea f4} (29... Nd5 30. Re1 f4 31. Qc4 $14) 30. Re1 (30. Re2 e4 31.
dxe4 fxe4 32. Bxg7+ Kxg7 33. Qc3+ Kh6 $16) 30... f4 31. Rf1 fxg3 32. hxg3 (32.
fxg3 Rxf1+ 33. Bxf1 Rf8 $19) 32... Nf6 33. Qc4 h6 34. Re1 Ng8 (34... Nd5 35.
Re2 $16) 35. Qe4 Qf7 36. Re2 Nf6 (36... Re7 37. Qa4 $18) 37. Qf5 Qb3 $4 {
el Negro cae} (37... Re7 $142 $18) 38. Rxb7 Qd1+ (38... Nd5 {
un infructuoso intento para alterar el curso de la partida} 39. Qg6 Ne7 40. Qe4
$18) 39. Bf1 Nd5 40. Qg6 Ne7 41. Qe4 Nf5 42. Re1 (42. Rxg7 $142 {
y el resto es cuestión de técnica} Kxg7 43. Bxe5+ (43. Qxc6 Nxg3 44. Qd7+ Kh8
$19) 43... Kh7 44. b7 $18) 42... Qc2 43. Re2 $4 {lo fastidia todo} (43. Ba1 $5
{mantiene incluso un dominio más firme} Re7 44. Rc7 Rxc7 45. bxc7 Qxc5 $18)
43... Qxc5 $4 {con esta jugada el Negro pierde la iniciativa} (43... Qd1 44.
Rxg7 Nxg7 45. Bxe5 Rxe5 46. Qxe5 Qb3 $18) 44. Qg4 (44. Qc4 $142 $5 Qxc4 45.
dxc4 Rb8 46. Rxb8 Rxb8 $18) 44... Nd6 (44... Rd8 45. Qc4 Qxc4 46. dxc4 $18) 1-0
Este error no se produce cuando analiza Crafty:
[Event "VI Regina Helena Marques"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.05.17"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Bachmann, Axel"]
[Black "Campelo, Leandro"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A26"]
[WhiteElo "2519"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[Annotator "Crafty 20.14 (10s)"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2008.05.17"]
[SourceDate "2008.05.20"]
{A26: Apertura Inglesa contra la India de Rey: líneas con ... Cc6 y d3} 1. c4
g6 2. g3 Bg7 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 e5 5. d3 Nc6 6. Rb1 a5 7. e3 Nf6 8. Nge2 {
ultima jugada del libro} O-O 9. O-O Be6 10. Nd5 Qd7 11. Nec3 Ne8 12. Re1 f5 13.
a3 {Consolida b4} Nf6 14. b4 axb4 15. axb4 Rab8 16. b5 {
El Blanco obtiene más espacio} Ne7 17. Bb2 Kh8 (17... Bxd5 18. cxd5 f4 19. Rf1
$11) 18. Qc2 (18. Nxe7 Qxe7 19. Ra1 e4 $14) 18... Neg8 (18... Bxd5 19. Nxd5
Nexd5 20. cxd5 $11) 19. b6 c6 {Cubre b5} 20. Nc7 {Amenazando} Bf7 21. c5 d5 22.
Ne2 Ne8 23. Nxe8 Rbxe8 24. Ra1 Nf6 25. Ra7 {! Loado la torre!} g5 26. Nc1 d4 {
Este avance gana espacio} 27. Nb3 Bxb3 28. Qxb3 dxe3 (28... f4 29. exf4 exf4
30. Qb4 $11) 29. Rxe3 $14 Ng4 {el Negro prepara f4} 30. Re1 f4 {
El Negro amplía su espacio} 31. Rf1 fxg3 32. hxg3 (32. fxg3 Rxf1+ 33. Bxf1 Qf5
$17) 32... Nf6 33. Qc4 h6 (33... Re7 34. Qc1 h6 35. Qc4 $14) 34. Re1 $16 Ng8
35. Qe4 Qf7 36. Re2 Nf6 (36... Re7 $5 $16) 37. Qf5 $18 Qb3 $4 {
el último error, no el más importante} (37... Re7 $142 $18) 38. Rxb7 Qd1+ (
38... Nd5 {no puede cambiar el destino} 39. Bxe5 Rxe5 40. Qg6 $18) 39. Bf1 Nd5
40. Qg6 Ne7 41. Qe4 Nf5 42. Re1 (42. Qg2 $142 $18 {
y el Blanco se lleva el punto a casa}) 42... Qc2 43. Re2 Qxc5 44. Qg4 (44. Qc4
Qxc4 45. dxc4 Rb8 46. Rxb8 Rxb8 $18) 44... Nd6 (44... Rd8 45. Qc4 Qxc4 46. dxc4
Rd1 $18) 1-0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explanation in English of the Spanish writing above :
I got this analysis result when I reproduce the game form the beginnings and the engine is running (in analysis mode)
10: Bachmann,A - Campelo,L, VI Regina Helena Marques 2008
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. = (0.00): 43...Qd1
2. +- (1.70): 43...Qxc5 44.Qc4 Qb5 45.Qxb5 cxb5 46.Rxg7 Kxg7 47.Bxe5+ Kf7 48.b7 g4 49.d4 Rxe5 50.dxe5 Nd4 51.Ra2 Nf3+
3. +- (5.40): 43...Qb3 44.Qxc6 Rc8 45.Rc7 Rxc7 46.Qxc7 Rf7 47.Qc8+ Kh7 48.Bxe5 Nd4 49.Bxg7
But when I jazz copy this position on Fritz an start the engine, I got this result (for the same position):
New game
4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Fritz 10:
1. +- (1.70): 1...Qxc5 2.Qc4 Qb5 3.Qxb5 cxb5 4.Bh3 Nd4 5.Bxd4 exd4 6.Rb2 Rb8 7.Rxb8 Rxb8 8.Rxb5 Kg8 9.Be6+ Kf8 10.b7 Ke7 11.Rb6
2. +- (5.57): 1...Qb1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 Qxd3
3. +- (5.57): 1...Qd1 2.Rxg7 Kxg7 3.Bxe5+ Kh7 4.Qxc6 Qxd3 5.b7 Qb3 6.Qc7+ Re7 7.b8Q Qxb8 8.Qxb8 Rxb8
Crafty do not produce this effect.
I don't know if it is jazz a problem of my particular computer..
-
PerroMaster
Re: Interesting position..
The same result I got running Strelka 2.0 in Arena..jazz when I reproduce the game from the PGN.
[Event "VI Regina Helena Marques"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.05.17"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Bachmann, Axel"]
[Black "Campelo, Leandro"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A25"]
[WhiteElo "2519"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2008.05.17"]
[SourceDate "2008.05.20"]
1. c4 g6 2. g3 Bg7 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 e5 5. d3 Nc6 6. Rb1 a5 7. e3 Nf6 8. Nge2
O-O 9. O-O Be6 10. Nd5 Qd7 11. Nec3 Ne8 12. Re1 f5 13. a3 Nf6 14. b4 axb4 15.
axb4 Rab8 16. b5 Ne7 17. Bb2 Kh8 18. Qc2 Neg8 19. b6 c6 20. Nc7 Bf7 21. c5 d5
22. Ne2 Ne8 23. Nxe8 Rbxe8 24. Ra1 Nf6 25. Ra7 g5 26. Nc1 d4 27. Nb3 Bxb3 28.
Qxb3 dxe3 29. Rxe3 Ng4 30. Re1 f4 31. Rf1 fxg3 32. hxg3 Nf6 33. Qc4 h6 34. Re1
Ng8 35. Qe4 Qf7 36. Re2 Nf6 37. Qf5 Qb3 38. Rxb7 Qd1+ 39. Bf1 Nd5 40. Qg6 Ne7
41. Qe4 Nf5 42. Re1 Qc2 43. Re2 Qxc5 44. Qg4 Nd6 1-0
After move 43. Re2 ..
Strelka_2_0:
1 00:00 35 0 0,00 Qd1
2 00:00 38 0 0,00 Qd1
3 00:00 82 0 0,00 Qd1
4 00:00 146 0 0,00 Qd1
5 00:00 213 0 0,00 Qd1
6 00:00 295 0 0,00 Qd1
7 00:00 520 32.500 0,00 Qd1
8 00:00 1.888 118.000 0,00 Qd1
9 00:00 3.476 217.250 0,00 Qd1
10 00:00 9.359 292.468 0,00 Qd1
11 00:00 16.539 516.843 0,00 Qd1
12 00:00 34.393 435.354 0,00 Qd1
13 00:00 68.438 485.375 0,00 Qd1
14 00:00 139.249 523.492 0,00 Qd1
15 00:00 267.611 570.599 0,00 Qd1
16 00:01 566.128 624.176 0,00 Qd1
17 00:03 1.091.857 665.360 0,00 Qd1
18 00:06 2.263.250 699.613 0,00 Qd1
19 00:16 4.993.665 714.912 0,00 Qd1
20 00:34 11.822.234 728.912 0,00 Qd1
21 01:10 25.221.064 735.372 0,00 Qd1
22 02:16 51.859.676 739.036 0,00 Qd1
23 05:10 101.101.933 741.433 0,00 Qd1
Otherwise, when I jazz copy the position, I got
FEN: 4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 43
Strelka_2_0:
1 00:00 1 0 -2,08 Qxc5
2 00:00 105 0 -2,33 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4
3 00:00 447 0 -2,09 Qxc5 Qc4 Qd5
4 00:00 1.642 0 -2,00 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Kh7
5 00:00 5.375 0 -1,67 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8
6 00:00 10.988 354.451 -1,72 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8 Bh3
7 00:00 32.892 530.516 -1,67 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Nd4 Re3 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8
8 00:00 61.025 559.862 -1,73 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Nd4 Re3 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8 c5
9 00:00 179.939 640.352 -1,82 Qxc5 d4 Nxd4 Re3 Qc2 Qxc2 Nxc2 Rc3 Nd4 Bd3
10 00:00 459.567 653.722 -1,80 Qxc5 Qa4 Ra8 Qc2 Qxc2 Rxc2 Ra2 Ra7 Nd4 Rxa2 Nxc2
11 00:01 833.135 658.604 -1,73 Qxc5 Qa4 Nd4 Bxd4 exd4 Rc2 Qb5 Qxb5 cxb5 Rcc7 Rg8 Bg2 b4
12 00:02 1.558.228 673.974 -1,81 Qxc5 Qa4 Rb8 Rc2 Qb5 Qxb5 cxb5 Bg2 Rxb7 Bxb7 Kh7 Bd5 Nd4 Rc7
13 00:05 3.157.468 706.684 -2,16 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8 c5 Nd4 Bxd4 exd4 Re6 Kg8 Rxc6 Kf7 Bc4+ Ke8
14 00:08 5.795.914 713.343 -2,14 Qxc5 Qc4 Qb5 Bg2 Qxc4 dxc4 Nd6 Rc7 Nxc4 b7 Nxb2 Rxb2 e4 Re2 e3 Bxc6 exf2+ Rxf2 Re1+ Kg2
[Event "VI Regina Helena Marques"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.05.17"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Bachmann, Axel"]
[Black "Campelo, Leandro"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A25"]
[WhiteElo "2519"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2008.05.17"]
[SourceDate "2008.05.20"]
1. c4 g6 2. g3 Bg7 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 e5 5. d3 Nc6 6. Rb1 a5 7. e3 Nf6 8. Nge2
O-O 9. O-O Be6 10. Nd5 Qd7 11. Nec3 Ne8 12. Re1 f5 13. a3 Nf6 14. b4 axb4 15.
axb4 Rab8 16. b5 Ne7 17. Bb2 Kh8 18. Qc2 Neg8 19. b6 c6 20. Nc7 Bf7 21. c5 d5
22. Ne2 Ne8 23. Nxe8 Rbxe8 24. Ra1 Nf6 25. Ra7 g5 26. Nc1 d4 27. Nb3 Bxb3 28.
Qxb3 dxe3 29. Rxe3 Ng4 30. Re1 f4 31. Rf1 fxg3 32. hxg3 Nf6 33. Qc4 h6 34. Re1
Ng8 35. Qe4 Qf7 36. Re2 Nf6 37. Qf5 Qb3 38. Rxb7 Qd1+ 39. Bf1 Nd5 40. Qg6 Ne7
41. Qe4 Nf5 42. Re1 Qc2 43. Re2 Qxc5 44. Qg4 Nd6 1-0
After move 43. Re2 ..
Strelka_2_0:
1 00:00 35 0 0,00 Qd1
2 00:00 38 0 0,00 Qd1
3 00:00 82 0 0,00 Qd1
4 00:00 146 0 0,00 Qd1
5 00:00 213 0 0,00 Qd1
6 00:00 295 0 0,00 Qd1
7 00:00 520 32.500 0,00 Qd1
8 00:00 1.888 118.000 0,00 Qd1
9 00:00 3.476 217.250 0,00 Qd1
10 00:00 9.359 292.468 0,00 Qd1
11 00:00 16.539 516.843 0,00 Qd1
12 00:00 34.393 435.354 0,00 Qd1
13 00:00 68.438 485.375 0,00 Qd1
14 00:00 139.249 523.492 0,00 Qd1
15 00:00 267.611 570.599 0,00 Qd1
16 00:01 566.128 624.176 0,00 Qd1
17 00:03 1.091.857 665.360 0,00 Qd1
18 00:06 2.263.250 699.613 0,00 Qd1
19 00:16 4.993.665 714.912 0,00 Qd1
20 00:34 11.822.234 728.912 0,00 Qd1
21 01:10 25.221.064 735.372 0,00 Qd1
22 02:16 51.859.676 739.036 0,00 Qd1
23 05:10 101.101.933 741.433 0,00 Qd1
Otherwise, when I jazz copy the position, I got
FEN: 4rr1k/1R4b1/1Pp4p/2P1pnp1/4Q3/3P2P1/1Bq1RP2/5BK1 b - - 0 43
Strelka_2_0:
1 00:00 1 0 -2,08 Qxc5
2 00:00 105 0 -2,33 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4
3 00:00 447 0 -2,09 Qxc5 Qc4 Qd5
4 00:00 1.642 0 -2,00 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Kh7
5 00:00 5.375 0 -1,67 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8
6 00:00 10.988 354.451 -1,72 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8 Bh3
7 00:00 32.892 530.516 -1,67 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Nd4 Re3 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8
8 00:00 61.025 559.862 -1,73 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Nd4 Re3 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8 c5
9 00:00 179.939 640.352 -1,82 Qxc5 d4 Nxd4 Re3 Qc2 Qxc2 Nxc2 Rc3 Nd4 Bd3
10 00:00 459.567 653.722 -1,80 Qxc5 Qa4 Ra8 Qc2 Qxc2 Rxc2 Ra2 Ra7 Nd4 Rxa2 Nxc2
11 00:01 833.135 658.604 -1,73 Qxc5 Qa4 Nd4 Bxd4 exd4 Rc2 Qb5 Qxb5 cxb5 Rcc7 Rg8 Bg2 b4
12 00:02 1.558.228 673.974 -1,81 Qxc5 Qa4 Rb8 Rc2 Qb5 Qxb5 cxb5 Bg2 Rxb7 Bxb7 Kh7 Bd5 Nd4 Rc7
13 00:05 3.157.468 706.684 -2,16 Qxc5 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Rb8 Rxb8 Rxb8 c5 Nd4 Bxd4 exd4 Re6 Kg8 Rxc6 Kf7 Bc4+ Ke8
14 00:08 5.795.914 713.343 -2,14 Qxc5 Qc4 Qb5 Bg2 Qxc4 dxc4 Nd6 Rc7 Nxc4 b7 Nxb2 Rxb2 e4 Re2 e3 Bxc6 exf2+ Rxf2 Re1+ Kg2
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Eelco de Groot
- Posts: 4673
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
- Full name: Eelco de Groot
Re: Interesting position..
Hello, Hola Ricardo,
It is understandable that you were surprised by this effect but it is as you can see not uncommon and not considered a bug by most programmers. I thought that maybe Uri Blass would have responded to your post, as this has come up in Rybka forum also. Clue was that you only see it when analyzing the gamescore but not the position! It is caused by the fact that for programs to work effectively, they have to score a two-fold repetition as a draw already, where in the FIDE rules it is clearly stated; You can only claim a draw if you can force a three-fold repetition on the board.
Maybe in analysis mode there should be an option that the program only scores threefold repetition but to be honest I have no clue how difficult that is to program, and I'm not sure if Crafty and/or Arasan already do such a thing?
Maybe some of the programmers involved can answer that question!
Eelco
It is understandable that you were surprised by this effect but it is as you can see not uncommon and not considered a bug by most programmers. I thought that maybe Uri Blass would have responded to your post, as this has come up in Rybka forum also. Clue was that you only see it when analyzing the gamescore but not the position! It is caused by the fact that for programs to work effectively, they have to score a two-fold repetition as a draw already, where in the FIDE rules it is clearly stated; You can only claim a draw if you can force a three-fold repetition on the board.
Maybe in analysis mode there should be an option that the program only scores threefold repetition but to be honest I have no clue how difficult that is to program, and I'm not sure if Crafty and/or Arasan already do such a thing?
Maybe some of the programmers involved can answer that question!
Eelco
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Harald Johnsen
Re: Interesting position..
It's a bug, because we are at the root of the search. Just checking if depth > 1 solved the problem.
The engines want to play the repetition when they have the pgn file, of course there is no repetition is you only give the fen string.
HJ.
The engines want to play the repetition when they have the pgn file, of course there is no repetition is you only give the fen string.
HJ.
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Eelco de Groot
- Posts: 4673
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
- Full name: Eelco de Groot
Re: Interesting position..
Thanks Harald! I hope Ricardo understands a bit of why this is happening now. I have not yet looked up where in Glauriung's code this could be changed but your solution seems a good idea!Harald Johnsen wrote:It's a bug, because we are at the root of the search. Just checking if depth > 1 solved the problem.
The engines want to play the repetition when they have the pgn file, of course there is no repetition is you only give the fen string.
HJ.
Regards, Eelco
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PerroMaster
Re: Interesting position..
Thanks Harald and Eelco, I almost went mad thinking on this case.
Personally, I think it is a bug, since it deliver a false analysis result.
My surprise is major when I think it happens in Fritz also (a commercial software you could expect free of mayor bugs..)
From now on I will only use Crafty for analysis..
Personally, I think it is a bug, since it deliver a false analysis result.
My surprise is major when I think it happens in Fritz also (a commercial software you could expect free of mayor bugs..)
From now on I will only use Crafty for analysis..
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PerroMaster
Re: Interesting position..
Strelka working on Scid 3.6.23 works well on this pgn game.