recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Post Reply
pilgrimdan
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:49 pm

recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by pilgrimdan » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:48 am

https://medium.com/@josecamachocollados ... 66ae1c84f2

Jose Camacho Collados
Mathematician, AI/NLP researcher and chess International Master.

Is AlphaZero really a scientific breakthrough in AI?

Dirt
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Irvine, CA, USA

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by Dirt » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:55 am

Again, Deepmind didn't try to make the best chess program possible. They were trying to show that a neural network worked better than traditional methods. Since they hadn't put variable thinking time into Alphazero they tested both programs with fixed thinking time. This only showed superiority at fixed thinking time; the case of variable thinking time is still open.
Deasil is the right way to go.

shrapnel
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:43 am
Location: New Delhi, India

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by shrapnel » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:12 am

Unfortunately, since Alphazero has not been commercialized nor has more information been released, the voices of its detractors will grow only stronger.
Sad, because computer chess players were given a glimpse of the Future ( A Ferrari ! ) and now we are forced to play with obsolete chess engines ( Wooden Bullock Carts !).
i7 5960X @ 4.1 Ghz, 64 GB G.Skill RipJaws RAM, Asus ROG Strix 11 GB Geforce 1080 Ti and AMD Ryzen 7 1800X @4.0 GHz, 32 GB DDR4-2400 G.Skill RAM, ASUS Prime x370-PRO, Noctua NH-D15 SE-AM4 Cooler.

shrapnel
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:43 am
Location: New Delhi, India

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by shrapnel » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:15 am

Dirt wrote:Again, Deepmind didn't try to make the best chess program possible. They were trying to show that a neural network worked better than traditional methods. Since they hadn't put variable thinking time into Alphazero they tested both programs with fixed thinking time. This only showed superiority at fixed thinking time; the case of variable thinking time is still open.
That is essentially, correct.
Unfortunately, the Conspiracy Theorists here will put another spin to it.
i7 5960X @ 4.1 Ghz, 64 GB G.Skill RipJaws RAM, Asus ROG Strix 11 GB Geforce 1080 Ti and AMD Ryzen 7 1800X @4.0 GHz, 32 GB DDR4-2400 G.Skill RAM, ASUS Prime x370-PRO, Noctua NH-D15 SE-AM4 Cooler.

FWCC
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:39 pm

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by FWCC » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:28 am

Alpha Zero is revolutionary I think.I will email them to ask if they will go commercial.Of course they probably are not as keen into chess as we are.Just think ,this thing destroys Stockfish and prob the current versions also.The possibilities are endless.TAL WAS CORRECT. Really I hope they go commercial or at least open source.

duncan
Posts: 9238
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by duncan » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:20 am

pilgrimdan wrote:https://medium.com/@josecamachocollados ... 66ae1c84f2

Jose Camacho Collados
Mathematician, AI/NLP researcher and chess International Master.

Is AlphaZero really a scientific breakthrough in AI?
from the link: seems rather unlikely.

"This improvement on computing power paves the way for the development of newer algorithms, and probably in a few years a game like chess could be almost solved by heavily relying on brute force."

Rodolfo Leoni
Posts: 544
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by Rodolfo Leoni » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:56 am

shrapnel wrote:Unfortunately, since Alphazero has not been commercialized nor has more information been released, the voices of its detractors will grow only stronger.
Sad, because computer chess players were given a glimpse of the Future ( A Ferrari ! ) and now we are forced to play with obsolete chess engines ( Wooden Bullock Carts !).
Being not a detractor, I really think hardware is a breakthrough. I'm not sure about AlphaZero, tough. It could become like one of the old videogames in our C64 home computers, if compared to an engine by top programmers (when/if hardware will be available).

If we think at self-learning procedure and philosophy, Romichess already performed such a task more than 10 years ago. Give Romi features to a top engine, let it train both vs himself and a group of top opponents for enough games, then you'll get the same effect. With all the limits of conventional technology, of course.

The strenght difference of AlphaZero could depend only because of hardware, IMO. But I'll be very curious to see if Deep Mind decides to let it participate to WCCC, to legitimate its superiority. :wink:
F.S.I. Chess Teacher

User avatar
hgm
Posts: 23000
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller
Contact:

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by hgm » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:16 pm

It seems a complete bullshit paper...

Damir
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:53 pm

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by Damir » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:18 pm

Everything shrapnel says is bullshit. :) :)

shrapnel
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:43 am
Location: New Delhi, India

Re: recent article on alphazero ... 12/11/2017 ...

Post by shrapnel » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:24 pm

FWCC wrote:Alpha Zero is revolutionary I think.I will email them to ask if they will go commercial.Of course they probably are not as keen into chess as we are.Just think ,this thing destroys Stockfish and prob the current versions also.The possibilities are endless.TAL WAS CORRECT. Really I hope they go commercial or at least open source.
Do let us know if they reply.
Indeed, Tal was correct ! AlphaZero, with its almost human style, has brought back some Romance and Adventurism in Chess and shown that Chess can still be played that way, at the highest level.
It seems a complete bullshit paper...
I thought so too, despite the author's impressive qualifications.
i7 5960X @ 4.1 Ghz, 64 GB G.Skill RipJaws RAM, Asus ROG Strix 11 GB Geforce 1080 Ti and AMD Ryzen 7 1800X @4.0 GHz, 32 GB DDR4-2400 G.Skill RAM, ASUS Prime x370-PRO, Noctua NH-D15 SE-AM4 Cooler.

Post Reply