FIDE's new rules for chess

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mjlef
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FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by mjlef » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:50 pm

Please take a look here: http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/ ... ew=article

especially sections 9.3 and 9.6. The new rules call for a draw after 75 moves (without either player having to claim it--see section 9.6), although the regular claim in section 9.3 can still happen after 50 moves. I think most GUI's and most computer chess tournaments end at the 50 move rule.

If there are comments, especially relating to computer chess, let me know and I can pass them on to the ICGA Board (I am the current ICGA's Programmers Representative).

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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by bob » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:13 pm

mjlef wrote:Please take a look here: http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/ ... ew=article

especially sections 9.3 and 9.6. The new rules call for a draw after 75 moves (without either player having to claim it--see section 9.6), although the regular claim in section 9.3 can still happen after 50 moves. I think most GUI's and most computer chess tournaments end at the 50 move rule.

If there are comments, especially relating to computer chess, let me know and I can pass them on to the ICGA Board (I am the current ICGA's Programmers Representative).
I think it is moot. Normal programs will either (a) avoid the 50 move draw if possible, (b) otherwise claim it when it happens.

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hgm
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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by hgm » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:23 pm

In WinBoard/XBoard the number of repeats and reversible moves after which the GUI adjudicates a draw are user-adjustible parameters. In the standard distribution I configured them for 6th repeat and 51 moves, to allow engines to claim for themselves, and detect those that don't. People can simply change this to 5th repeat and 75 reversible moves. Even with these high adjudication values, the GUI would accept draw claims after the 3rd repeat and 5oth reversible move.

So it seems this does exactly what the new FIDE rules do.

I doubt it has any consequences to stick to the old rules, though. Playing on after you have the right to claim a draw is surely futile, as whenever one of the sides is in danger of losing, he would claim. So a GUI that would adjudicate draw after 50 moves would simply be considered having claimed a draw on behalf of the engine, which is a valid claim at that point.

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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by crossroads » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:36 pm

Those rules are for the empire in case players do not claim. The old rules (for the players) still stay in effect.

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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by bob » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:43 pm

crossroads wrote:Those rules are for the empire in case players do not claim. The old rules (for the players) still stay in effect.
I think the problem they are addressing is an imagined one, since the 50 move rule is optional, not forced. Either side can claim a draw after both have made 50 reversible moves, but they are not required to do so. The only loophole is to play beyond 50 and suddenly find a winning capture, when you make that move the 50 counter is reset and you will win, even though your opponent could have claimed a draw up until the capture was made...

Now the TD has a finite end to the game at 75 moves...

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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by Ferdy » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:10 am

When you are ahead in material and say some minor positional plus for example and could not win within the 50-moves-rule (EGT comes to mind), it is stupid to claim a draw, instead let the opponent claims it. If opponent will not claim (for some other agenda of his own, say time pressure for humans and for engines, "hey I am stronger than you, so lets continue" - smart contempt), then here comes the 25 moves extension. If player "A" is about to be check mated within this extension, he can no longer claim a draw by 50-moves-rule :o. Clever and I have something to fix in deuterium :D .

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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by hgm » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:36 am

This is not how the new rule is. You can still claim anywhere between move 50 and 75. Only when you discover you are lost after the counter is reset you can no longer claim. But that was also true under the old rules.

The only thing new is that you cannot go on beyond 75 reversible moves, even if both players want it.

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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by Ferdy » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:16 am

hgm wrote:This is not how the new rule is. You can still claim anywhere between move 50 and 75. Only when you discover you are lost after the counter is reset you can no longer claim. But that was also true under the old rules.

The only thing new is that you cannot go on beyond 75 reversible moves, even if both players want it.
Oops, yes I agree that beyond 50, a player can still claim if counter is not cleared. But at 75th a checkmate will prevail.

So for engines (even humans) if extending beyond 50 is still good and when it is about to be checkmated but before 75th, it can still claim draw by last-50-move rule, provided of course the counter is not cleared, what a shame for humans :) only. Is that really one of the intentions of rule 9.6b?

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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by bob » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:28 am

Ferdy wrote:When you are ahead in material and say some minor positional plus for example and could not win within the 50-moves-rule (EGT comes to mind), it is stupid to claim a draw, instead let the opponent claims it. If opponent will not claim (for some other agenda of his own, say time pressure for humans and for engines, "hey I am stronger than you, so lets continue" - smart contempt), then here comes the 25 moves extension. If player "A" is about to be check mated within this extension, he can no longer claim a draw by 50-moves-rule :o. Clever and I have something to fix in deuterium :D .
It doesn't work like that. Once the 50 move counter has been reached (both sides have played 50 reversible moves, A can claim a draw without making a move if he is about to be checkmated. Or he can write down a move, but not make it, and claim the draw if the 50 move counter is satisfied by his move. The only way the extra 25 moves would let someone win is if the opponent is REALLY stupid. :)

Now if A (your example) makes a move than drops a piece, it would be too late because the capture would reset the 50 move counter, assuming that he wrote the move down, played it, and hit the clock.

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Re: FIDE's new rules for chess

Post by Ferdy » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:11 am

bob wrote:
Ferdy wrote:When you are ahead in material and say some minor positional plus for example and could not win within the 50-moves-rule (EGT comes to mind), it is stupid to claim a draw, instead let the opponent claims it. If opponent will not claim (for some other agenda of his own, say time pressure for humans and for engines, "hey I am stronger than you, so lets continue" - smart contempt), then here comes the 25 moves extension. If player "A" is about to be check mated within this extension, he can no longer claim a draw by 50-moves-rule :o. Clever and I have something to fix in deuterium :D .
It doesn't work like that. Once the 50 move counter has been reached (both sides have played 50 reversible moves, A can claim a draw without making a move if he is about to be checkmated. Or he can write down a move, but not make it, and claim the draw if the 50 move counter is satisfied by his move. The only way the extra 25 moves would let someone win is if the opponent is REALLY stupid. :)

Now if A (your example) makes a move than drops a piece, it would be too late because the capture would reset the 50 move counter, assuming that he wrote the move down, played it, and hit the clock.
I re-checked it and it is "the last 50 moves [...]" according to article 9.3b, my bad :( .

I think this article 9.6b is just a complication, perhaps after the exact last 50 moves with no pawn or capture moves, the mate should prevail rule shall be in effect immediately, if nobody claims a draw, there is no need to wait for 75th move. Maybe this has something to do with human actual play on real board.

Alright Deuterium is uci now and its ability to claim draw by last 50 moves rule had been disabled.

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