Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

[Harvey Williamson]

Hi Graham,

The Dutch Open is an official ICGA tournament, at least as far as I know.

Is it?

According to Bob Hyatt it is not. Furthermore, it really surprises me to see him signing that ultimatum considering he also wrote:

"Who cares? That is their event, nothing to do with the ICGA. If someone wants to allow non-original programs, and the people organizing and competing don't mind, I don't see any issue at all."

Bob Hyatt, August 23, 2011

imho it is of course up to the ICGA who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

[Don]

Although I respect those whom I know in the letter, I think that an elite group of programmers (most of whom seem to have been on the panel that passed down the guilty verdict on Rybka?) trying to bully/railroad independent tournament organisers into meeting their demands goes far beyond what many enthusiasts would consider as acceptable.
I am really disappointed and wonder who will be next to face such an ultimatum.

All along, it seems to me that this decision regarding Rybka's eligibility has been hailed as being an ICGA (and perhaps FSF) matter, but now we see differently.

What was put down in writing and signed is simply what we were feeling anyway. Instead of silently boycotting their tournament it is better to communicate WHY it's happening and it turns out most of use feel this way. I would have done something like this privately anyway. So isn't it better to give them a heads up about why so many are not coming to their tournament instead of just giving them the silent treatment?

I cannot speak for everyone but I know that for me it's not about trying to pressure them into something they don't want to do. I want them to feel free to do what is right, but I should be allowed the same consideration too.

You should also keep in mind that no matter how you slice it, these tournaments are optional for the authors of the programs - we are not obligated to come to them. To put it bluntly, we don't have to come and it's unreasonable to expect us to come if we don't want to or do not like it for whatever reason. What IS unreasonable is for the tournament to dictate terms we don't like and then call us the bullies. So I respectfully must say that I think you have this backwards about who is doing the bullying. Of course I know that it's not them saying this, but evidently it must seem like that is what is going on for you to say it.

I have to say that I really like that tournament and the atmosphere that exists there, so this was no easy decision for me. I also like the people involved very much and I have been treated very well by them. It's a very unfortunate situation when the worlds strongest program happens to be a derivative and that is when everyone wants to start making concessions to integrity and fairness. But you have to be a man about it and try to make the right decision with impartiality. The fact that this doesn't happen too often is why such practices flourish - people are basically rewarded for cheating in our society.

[Harvey Williamson]

Hi Graham,

The Dutch Open is an official ICGA tournament, at least as far as I know.

Is it?

According to Bob Hyatt it is not. Furthermore, it really surprises me to see him signing that ultimatum considering he also wrote:

"Who cares? That is their event, nothing to do with the ICGA. If someone wants to allow non-original programs, and the people organizing and competing don't mind, I don't see any issue at all."

Bob Hyatt, August 23, 2011

imho it is of course up to the ICGA who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

Of course my message should have read:

imho it is of course up to the CSVN who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

[Don]

Hi Graham,

The Dutch Open is an official ICGA tournament, at least as far as I know.

Is it?

According to Bob Hyatt it is not. Furthermore, it really surprises me to see him signing that ultimatum considering he also wrote:

"Who cares? That is their event, nothing to do with the ICGA. If someone wants to allow non-original programs, and the people organizing and competing don't mind, I don't see any issue at all."

Bob Hyatt, August 23, 2011

imho it is of course up to the ICGA who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

Of course my message should have read:

imho it is of course up to the CSVN who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

In my opinion it's a kindness to tell them that we are not going to participate and why, even if it's not pleasant having to write that letter ....

[Harvey Williamson]

Hi Graham,

The Dutch Open is an official ICGA tournament, at least as far as I know.

Is it?

According to Bob Hyatt it is not. Furthermore, it really surprises me to see him signing that ultimatum considering he also wrote:

"Who cares? That is their event, nothing to do with the ICGA. If someone wants to allow non-original programs, and the people organizing and competing don't mind, I don't see any issue at all."

Bob Hyatt, August 23, 2011

imho it is of course up to the ICGA who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

Of course my message should have read:

imho it is of course up to the CSVN who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

In my opinion it's a kindness to tell them that we are not going to participate and why, even if it's not pleasant having to write that letter ....

agreed.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Hi Graham,

The Dutch Open is an official ICGA tournament, at least as far as I know.

Is it?

According to Bob Hyatt it is not. Furthermore, it really surprises me to see him signing that ultimatum considering he also wrote:

"Who cares? That is their event, nothing to do with the ICGA. If someone wants to allow non-original programs, and the people organizing and competing don't mind, I don't see any issue at all."

Bob Hyatt, August 23, 2011

imho it is of course up to the ICGA who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

Of course my message should have read:

imho it is of course up to the CSVN who they allow to play. It is also for those who thimk they are making a big mistake to tell them so in the most effective way possible.

In my opinion it's a kindness to tell them that we are not going to participate and why, even if it's not pleasant having to write that letter ....

Agreed here....one must be a straight forward shooter....zig-zag manoeuvers will make things even worse....
Dr.D

[bob]

Hi Graham,

The Dutch Open is an official ICGA tournament, at least as far as I know.

Is it?

According to Bob Hyatt it is not. Furthermore, it really surprises me to see him signing that ultimatum considering he also wrote:

"Who cares? That is their event, nothing to do with the ICGA. If someone wants to allow non-original programs, and the people organizing and competing don't mind, I don't see any issue at all."

Bob Hyatt, August 23, 2011

I signed it because of the false statements they made about the process.

The evidence

1. The group of experts consisted partially of the same persons who, a few years ago, explicitly stated that Rybka was not a clone. It is indeed very remarkable that experts suddenly change their mind.

2. The version of Rybka that was examined had never been distributed. The versions of Rybka that took part in the World Championships were not examined.

3. None of the other competitors in the World Championships had been examined.

1. "suddenly change their mind"? It took then FIVE YEARS to change their mind. As verified by some of them.

2. The "version that was examined"? There were 4 versions examined. 1.6.1, 1.0 beta, 2.3.2 and 2.3.2a. The versions that took part in the WCCC were not examined? According to my docs, 2.3.2a certainly competed. And we have an exact statement from the operator/team member Lukas Ciamotti that 2.3.2a competed.

3. False. No other participants have been kicked out or not allowed in? Really? Never heard of quickstep, wmccc 1989? Gunda-1 WMCCC 1996, List WCCC 2003, etc?

Obviously, every single statement is completely, 100% false. Of course I signed a letter to them pointing out that they were acting like idiots. They were.

[bob]

It wasn't enough to give him a verdict and penalty- which BTW I still consider pure bullshit.

But now you are evidently going to have petitions and threats of not entering yourselves. What is next- a threat to chessbase to end their relationship with him?

And if that does not work- figure out a way to see who has bought Rybka since this verdict came down and worry the hell out of them?

Under the guise of fairness and morality, which I would imagine a blind man could see thru, you are determined to make his life miserable to the end of time.

I just wish for 1 day I could be the guy you sent this open letter to, and I could respond back. You wouldn't be sending another.

Not just for this case, but in my entire life I have wanted to be the one to respond to "open letters" and "threats of boycotts", blatant or veiled.

I would cancel an event before I would cave in to crap like this. But some have more backbone than others. And that "some" are the ones who have my respect.

And I am quite sure you don't care- but I have lost a ton of respect for anyone whose name is on that list. But that was easier than normal- because some already had none of my respect. And if it were me, I would suggest that their programs, under these circumstances, were the ones not welcome.

CSVN has not exactly been a paragon of virtue after the Junior fiasco. Then they release there statement which is based on 100% false accusations. Best of which was "no distributed version of Rybka was tested." 2.3.2a was not distributed?

One thing I know for sure Bob. You are a better person than this.

Than the CSVN? Absolutely. Their comments have not one single fact behind them, which is sad... But they have been slowly going off their rocker anyway over the past few years with the Junior and then Hiarcs situations...

[bob]

Although I respect those whom I know in the letter, I think that an elite group of programmers (most of whom seem to have been on the panel that passed down the guilty verdict on Rybka?) trying to bully/railroad independent tournament organisers into meeting their demands goes far beyond what many enthusiasts would consider as acceptable.
I am really disappointed and wonder who will be next to face such an ultimatum.

All along, it seems to me that this decision regarding Rybka's eligibility has been hailed as being an ICGA (and perhaps FSF) matter, but now we see differently.

What was put down in writing and signed is simply what we were feeling anyway. Instead of silently boycotting their tournament it is better to communicate WHY it's happening and it turns out most of use feel this way. I would have done something like this privately anyway. So isn't it better to give them a heads up about why so many are not coming to their tournament instead of just giving them the silent treatment?

I cannot speak for everyone but I know that for me it's not about trying to pressure them into something they don't want to do. I want them to feel free to do what is right, but I should be allowed the same consideration too.

You should also keep in mind that no matter how you slice it, these tournaments are optional for the authors of the programs - we are not obligated to come to them. To put it bluntly, we don't have to come and it's unreasonable to expect us to come if we don't want to or do not like it for whatever reason. What IS unreasonable is for the tournament to dictate terms we don't like and then call us the bullies. So I respectfully must say that I think you have this backwards about who is doing the bullying. Of course I know that it's not them saying this, but evidently it must seem like that is what is going on for you to say it.

I have to say that I really like that tournament and the atmosphere that exists there, so this was no easy decision for me. I also like the people involved very much and I have been treated very well by them. It's a very unfortunate situation when the worlds strongest program happens to be a derivative and that is when everyone wants to start making concessions to integrity and fairness. But you have to be a man about it and try to make the right decision with impartiality. The fact that this doesn't happen too often is why such practices flourish - people are basically rewarded for cheating in our society.

For the record, David, on behalf of the ICGA secretariat responsible for this, sent them a letter pointing out the errors in their public statement. So far as I know, we've seen nothing in response.

[bob]

CSVN has not exactly been a paragon of virtue after the Junior fiasco. Then they release there statement which is based on 100% false accusations. Best of which was "no distributed version of Rybka was tested." 2.3.2a was not distributed?

Can someone please refresh my memory about the "Junior Fiasco". What happened?

Thanks

I don't remember the specifics now, but it had to do with some issue getting Junior into their tournament, and Cock decided to use a hacked version, without Amir's permission and entered that in the tournament without permission. Someone closer can provide more details, but that was the nutshell version.