Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Post Reply
User avatar
marcelk
Posts: 348
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:21 pm
Contact:

Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by marcelk » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:00 pm

The following letter has been sent to the CSVN. I'm posting it here on behalf of the signees.
Open letter to the CSVN

September 21, 2011

Dear Cock de Gorter, CSVN board and CSVN members,

As past participants of the CSVN tournaments we feel that your decision to allow Rybka back in your tournaments is ill-reasoned and damaging to computer chess. Your statements regarding the decision-making are misleading and those about the evidence are all factually false:
  1. The ICGA panel consisted of experienced computer chess specialists, some commercial, some hobbyists, and some pure academics. At the end of the investigation, not a single person in the panel said that they believed Vasik Rajlich was innocent.
  2. Experts who have long-defended Vasik Rajlich have changed their minds because the investigation results leaves them no doubt regarding his breaking of rule 2 of the ICGA: Rybka is a without a shred of doubt a direct derivative of Crafty/Fruit and Mr. Rajlich concealed these origins from the Tournament Director. Furthermore, he has not provided any clarification for the found similarities.
  3. All Rybka executables considered in the investigation were distributed to rating lists and/or users. Version 2.3.2a participated in the 2007 WCCC.
  4. In the past the ICGA has investigated entries that raised suspicion and for which a complaint was filed by one of the participants. Cheaters have been caught before and Rybka is no exception.
The sanctioning of Rybka is upsetting news for all involved in computer chess. The public condemnation of a many-times World Champion and well-known representative of the field does not reflect well on the field’s image. The decision to ban Rybka was consequently not taken lightly.

However, it is unacceptable to us that you base your decision making on opinionated Internet postings and put aside the extensive expertise that the ICGA has gathered. Your lack of judgment, which is further exemplified by your recent handling of the Junior/HIARCS incident, is a sign that your once-respectable tournaments are not in good hands any more. Under the current direction we can therefore not enter your tournaments.

Regards,

Amir Ban
Don Dailey
Robert Hyatt
Gerd Isenberg
Marcel van Kervinck
Stefan Meyer-Kahlen
Fabien Letouzey
Thomas Mayer
Daniel Mehrmann
Gian-Carlo Pascutto
Richard Pijl
Ralf Schäfer
Mark Uniacke
Ben-Hur Carlos Vieira Langoni Júnior
Harvey Williamson

User avatar
Dr.Wael Deeb
Posts: 9635
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:44 pm
Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:56 pm

marcelk wrote:The following letter has been sent to the CSVN. I'm posting it here on behalf of the signees.
Open letter to the CSVN

September 21, 2011

Dear Cock de Gorter, CSVN board and CSVN members,

As past participants of the CSVN tournaments we feel that your decision to allow Rybka back in your tournaments is ill-reasoned and damaging to computer chess. Your statements regarding the decision-making are misleading and those about the evidence are all factually false:
  1. The ICGA panel consisted of experienced computer chess specialists, some commercial, some hobbyists, and some pure academics. At the end of the investigation, not a single person in the panel said that they believed Vasik Rajlich was innocent.
  2. Experts who have long-defended Vasik Rajlich have changed their minds because the investigation results leaves them no doubt regarding his breaking of rule 2 of the ICGA: Rybka is a without a shred of doubt a direct derivative of Crafty/Fruit and Mr. Rajlich concealed these origins from the Tournament Director. Furthermore, he has not provided any clarification for the found similarities.
  3. All Rybka executables considered in the investigation were distributed to rating lists and/or users. Version 2.3.2a participated in the 2007 WCCC.
  4. In the past the ICGA has investigated entries that raised suspicion and for which a complaint was filed by one of the participants. Cheaters have been caught before and Rybka is no exception.
The sanctioning of Rybka is upsetting news for all involved in computer chess. The public condemnation of a many-times World Champion and well-known representative of the field does not reflect well on the field’s image. The decision to ban Rybka was consequently not taken lightly.

However, it is unacceptable to us that you base your decision making on opinionated Internet postings and put aside the extensive expertise that the ICGA has gathered. Your lack of judgment, which is further exemplified by your recent handling of the Junior/HIARCS incident, is a sign that your once-respectable tournaments are not in good hands any more. Under the current direction we can therefore not enter your tournaments.

Regards,

Amir Ban
Don Dailey
Robert Hyatt
Gerd Isenberg
Marcel van Kervinck
Stefan Meyer-Kahlen
Fabien Letouzey
Thomas Mayer
Daniel Mehrmann
Gian-Carlo Pascutto
Richard Pijl
Ralf Schäfer
Mark Uniacke
Ben-Hur Carlos Vieira Langoni Júnior
Harvey Williamson
Wow :shock:

The withdraw of these remarkable chess engines authors is a strong slap to the CSVN....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

User avatar
Mike S.
Posts: 1466
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:33 am

Re: Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by Mike S. » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:13 pm

It is a pleasant surprise for me that the CSVN is going to let Rybka participate. Now, I just hope that the responsible persons have the cojones to stick to this decision.

The people who signed that letter above may be very skillful, respectable chess programmers, and I think many of us enjoy some of their products. But at they same time, unfortunately I have to doubt their common sense. This witchhunt will not help them, not their programs nor anyone else. It is the noise THEY make which harms computer chess, not Rybka.

Also, would you believe that ANYONE from this group of honourable people did NOT read the public Fruit code and did not take absolutely EVERYTHING that seemed useful to him, up to the smallest bit? Claiming that would mean to insult the intelligence of the community.
Regards, Mike

User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 31198
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by Graham Banks » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:32 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:The withdraw of these remarkable chess engines authors is a strong slap to the CSVN....
Dr.D
Just out of interest and nothing more, how many of them have been participating in recent tournaments there?
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

User avatar
Harvey Williamson
Posts: 1759
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 9:12 pm
Location: Media City, UK
Contact:

Re: Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by Harvey Williamson » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:35 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:The withdraw of these remarkable chess engines authors is a strong slap to the CSVN....
Dr.D
Just out of interest and nothing more, how many of them have been participating in recent tournaments there?
I count 10 that heve played in the last 2 years.

Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 4819
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:16 pm
Location: Trier, Germany
Contact:

Re: Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:38 pm

Hi there,

logicial letter after all what we know about it but can't be right!!
All this make no sense because the discuss will be a never ending story.

1. Programmers should working on here own engines. Time can be better used as supported such letters.

2. CSVN or other organisators should have enough margin for own decisions. Can't be right that programmers have to decide what happen.

3. I think the decision by ICGA is right. But we should look in the future and not in the past. Strong sources are available, each one can see the ideas an can used the ideas. We have to life with it.

If programmers have a problem with critical programs in on official tourney it's easy to give a personal protest.

Refuse an official game!

If Rybka participant in Leiden, have to play 11 rounds and 7 programmers say ... sorry, no interest to play my games vs. Rybka each one can build his own opinion about it.

Sorry but again and again such open letter are not the right way!

Best
Frank
I like computer chess!

Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 4819
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:16 pm
Location: Trier, Germany
Contact:

Re: NONSENS

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:02 pm

Sorry for my second message:

NEVER, NEVER the organisators from perhaps the best computer chess event we have should give a threat with such a letter.

We should hold the events we have and we can be sure that the organisators in Leiden will do a good work as in all the years before. Cock de Corter have many knowledge about such things, he and the others in Leiden don't need a nanny, sorry!

What NONSENS
I am very disappointed about it!

Which one had this idea?

Best
Frank
I like computer chess!

User avatar
geots
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by geots » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:21 am

It wasn't enough to give him a verdict and penalty- which BTW I still consider pure bullshit.

But now you are evidently going to have petitions and threats of not entering yourselves. What is next- a threat to chessbase to end their relationship with him?

And if that does not work- figure out a way to see who has bought Rybka since this verdict came down and worry the hell out of them?

Under the guise of fairness and morality, which I would imagine a blind man could see thru, you are determined to make his life miserable to the end of time.

I just wish for 1 day I could be the guy you sent this open letter to, and I could respond back. You wouldn't be sending another.

Not just for this case, but in my entire life I have wanted to be the one to respond to "open letters" and "threats of boycotts", blatant or veiled.

I would cancel an event before I would cave in to crap like this. But some have more backbone than others. And that "some" are the ones who have my respect.

And I am quite sure you don't care- but I have lost a ton of respect for anyone whose name is on that list. But that was easier than normal- because some already had none of my respect. And if it were me, I would suggest that their programs, under these circumstances, were the ones not welcome.

He will be receiving another open letter, complete with signatures, letting him know how others feel. Believe me, there will be more than you think signing it.

What about 200 names on a petition that says "get your name off that list if you expect us to ever buy another one of your programs. And be aware this list of names will grow." Two can play at this sick game.
Last edited by geots on Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

bob
Posts: 20356
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by bob » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:23 am

Mike S. wrote:It is a pleasant surprise for me that the CSVN is going to let Rybka participate. Now, I just hope that the responsible persons have the cojones to stick to this decision.

The people who signed that letter above may be very skillful, respectable chess programmers, and I think many of us enjoy some of their products. But at they same time, unfortunately I have to doubt their common sense. This witchhunt will not help them, not their programs nor anyone else. It is the noise THEY make which harms computer chess, not Rybka.

Also, would you believe that ANYONE from this group of honourable people did NOT read the public Fruit code and did not take absolutely EVERYTHING that seemed useful to him, up to the smallest bit? Claiming that would mean to insult the intelligence of the community.
Big difference between copying ideas and copying code. As has been stated hundreds of times now.

bob
Posts: 20356
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

Post by bob » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:26 am

geots wrote:It wasn't enough to give him a verdict and penalty- which BTW I still consider pure bullshit.

But now you are evidently going to have petitions and threats of not entering yourselves. What is next- a threat to chessbase to end their relationship with him?

And if that does not work- figure out a way to see who has bought Rybka since this verdict came down and worry the hell out of them?

Under the guise of fairness and morality, which I would imagine a blind man could see thru, you are determined to make his life miserable to the end of time.

I just wish for 1 day I could be the guy you sent this open letter to, and I could respond back. You wouldn't be sending another.

Not just for this case, but in my entire life I have wanted to be the one to respond to "open letters" and "threats of boycotts", blatant or veiled.

I would cancel an event before I would cave in to crap like this. But some have more backbone than others. And that "some" are the ones who have my respect.

And I am quite sure you don't care- but I have lost a ton of respect for anyone whose name is on that list. But that was easier than normal- because some already had none of my respect. And if it were me, I would suggest that their programs, under these circumstances, were the ones not welcome.
CSVN has not exactly been a paragon of virtue after the Junior fiasco. Then they release there statement which is based on 100% false accusations. Best of which was "no distributed version of Rybka was tested." 2.3.2a was not distributed? :)

Post Reply