What world have I been in - castling notation?

[reflectionofpower]

I was writing some text about castling kingside and then it struck me that it is not the alphabet capital O's (O-O) or lowercase (o-o) but the zero's (0-0)

I read a book a little while back where your mind does not capture every little thing but it "fills in" the blanks with a facsimile of reality and this is a small case but on larger scales you see this all the time in relationships, eye witness accounts,etc.

[hgm]

What exactly does "it" refer to? WinBoard would understand all notations, of course (including those without dashes), but the only correct one is with captial O.

[reflectionofpower]

What exactly does "it" refer to? WinBoard would understand all notations, of course (including those without dashes), but the only correct one is with captial O.

"It" refers to me. Although in CB figurine notation it is zero-zero (0-0) which is the FIDE standard:

"O-O (or 0-0)
The move notation for kingside castling. (PGN format uses Os; FIDE uses 0s.)
O-O-O (or 0-0-0)
The move notation for queenside castling. (PGN format uses Os; FIDE uses 0s.)

Under Algebraic Notation - C.13

"The offer of a draw shall be marked as (=).
Essential abbreviations

0 - 0
= castling with rook h1 or rook h8 (kingside castling)
0 - 0 - 0
= castling with rook a1 or rook a8 (queenside castling)
x
= captures
+
= check
++or#
= checkmate
e.p.
= captures ‘en passant’
It is not mandatory to record the check, the checkmate and capturing on the scoresheet.
Sample game:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Ne4 5. Qxd4 d5 6. exd6e.p. Nxd6 7. Bg5 Nc6 8. Qe3+3 Be7 9. Nbd2 0-0 10. 0-0-0 Re8 11. Kb1 (=)

[bob]

What exactly does "it" refer to? WinBoard would understand all notations, of course (including those without dashes), but the only correct one is with captial O.

"It" refers to me. Although in CB figurine notation it is zero-zero (0-0) which is the FIDE standard:

"O-O (or 0-0)
The move notation for kingside castling. (PGN format uses Os; FIDE uses 0s.)
O-O-O (or 0-0-0)
The move notation for queenside castling. (PGN format uses Os; FIDE uses 0s.)

Under Algebraic Notation - C.13

"The offer of a draw shall be marked as (=).
Essential abbreviations

0 - 0
= castling with rook h1 or rook h8 (kingside castling)
0 - 0 - 0
= castling with rook a1 or rook a8 (queenside castling)
x
= captures
+
= check
++or#
= checkmate
e.p.
= captures ‘en passant’
It is not mandatory to record the check, the checkmate and capturing on the scoresheet.
Sample game:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Ne4 5. Qxd4 d5 6. exd6e.p. Nxd6 7. Bg5 Nc6 8. Qe3+3 Be7 9. Nbd2 0-0 10. 0-0-0 Re8 11. Kb1 (=)

About 20 years ago when I decided to use PGN input for my opening book stuff, I discovered one had to be quite flexible here.

oh-oh, 0-0, 0-oh, oh-0, and of course little-oh followed by ohs or 0s as well. And yes, to answer your question, I didn't think to catch 'em until I ran across 'em. I think I still have the PGN that had comments nested 17 levels deep, which is also just a bit ridiculous. On the same subject, we see 1.e4 and 1. e4 (space or no space). PGN is taken to be "quite flexible" by some.

[Norm Pollock]

PGN-Standards:
http://www.saremba.de/chessgml/standard ... mplete.htm


8.2.3.3: Basic SAN move construction

...

SAN kingside castling is indicated by the sequence "O-O"; queenside castling is indicated by the sequence "O-O-O". Note that the upper case letter "O" is used, not the digit zero. The use of a zero character is not only incompatible with traditional text practices, but it can also confuse parsing algorithms which also have to understand about move numbers and game termination markers. Also note that the use of the letter "O" is consistent with the practice of having all chess move symbols start with a letter; also, it follows the convention that all non-pwn move symbols start with an upper case letter.

...

------------------------------------

On a related note, PGN has some sticky situations with ambiguities and excessive disambiguities. The standard relating to not having excessive disambiguity is sometimes not followed by some (cb in particular).

http://chess.stackexchange.com/question ... es-handled

http://chess.stackexchange.com/question ... ity-or-not

[hgm]

Well, WinBoard aims to follow the PGN standard. FIDE is of no concern.

[reflectionofpower]

Well, WinBoard aims to follow the PGN standard. FIDE is of no concern.

I agree with the PGN standard. I am just saying that there are two sides to the coin. Heads it's PGN, Tails it's FIDE & CB GUI.

[syzygy]

PGN-Standards:
http://www.saremba.de/chessgml/standard ... mplete.htm


8.2.3.3: Basic SAN move construction

...

SAN kingside castling is indicated by the sequence "O-O"; queenside castling is indicated by the sequence "O-O-O". Note that the upper case letter "O" is used, not the digit zero. The use of a zero character is not only incompatible with traditional text practices, but it can also confuse parsing algorithms which also have to understand about move numbers and game termination markers.

It's not as if parsers can get away with ignore the "o-o" and (FIDE-suggested) "0-0" notations...

Also note that the use of the letter "O" is consistent with the practice of having all chess move symbols start with a letter; also, it follows the convention that all non-pwn move symbols start with an upper case letter.

Assuming FIDE was already clear about castling being 0-0 at the time this was written up, it is at least unfortunate that FIDE's choice was ignored.

[bob]

PGN-Standards:
http://www.saremba.de/chessgml/standard ... mplete.htm


8.2.3.3: Basic SAN move construction

...

SAN kingside castling is indicated by the sequence "O-O"; queenside castling is indicated by the sequence "O-O-O". Note that the upper case letter "O" is used, not the digit zero. The use of a zero character is not only incompatible with traditional text practices, but it can also confuse parsing algorithms which also have to understand about move numbers and game termination markers. Also note that the use of the letter "O" is consistent with the practice of having all chess move symbols start with a letter; also, it follows the convention that all non-pwn move symbols start with an upper case letter.

...

------------------------------------

On a related note, PGN has some sticky situations with ambiguities and excessive disambiguities. The standard relating to not having excessive disambiguity is sometimes not followed by some (cb in particular).

http://chess.stackexchange.com/question ... es-handled

http://chess.stackexchange.com/question ... ity-or-not

I'm aware of oh-oh being right. But I have been aware since 1994-1995 or so that it was NOT being followed. ChessBase was one of the main players in using 0-0 and such.

Crafty accepts 'em all. I found that easier than complaining to companies/people that are NOT going to fix it.

[bob]

PGN-Standards:
http://www.saremba.de/chessgml/standard ... mplete.htm


8.2.3.3: Basic SAN move construction

...

SAN kingside castling is indicated by the sequence "O-O"; queenside castling is indicated by the sequence "O-O-O". Note that the upper case letter "O" is used, not the digit zero. The use of a zero character is not only incompatible with traditional text practices, but it can also confuse parsing algorithms which also have to understand about move numbers and game termination markers.

It's not as if parsers can get away with ignore the "o-o" and (FIDE-suggested) "0-0" notations...

Also note that the use of the letter "O" is consistent with the practice of having all chess move symbols start with a letter; also, it follows the convention that all non-pwn move symbols start with an upper case letter.

Assuming FIDE was already clear about castling being 0-0 at the time this was written up, it is at least unfortunate that FIDE's choice was ignored.

I'd bet PGN pre-dates any fide spec. How can you tell if a hand-written score sheet uses 0's or O's or o's?