About two years ago, I stopped developing Daydreamer, my own engine, because it was taking up time that I needed to spend on school. Now I have more free time again and have been thinking about coming back to computer chess, and I was wondering what's been going on in the last few years.
I see some new names among engine developers, and certainly the engines at the top are stronger. Have there been any important new techniques developed, or are the improvements due to something else, maybe just incremental tuning.
In short, what did I miss?
Developments of the last two years
Moderator: Ras
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hgm
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Re: Developments of the last two years
The 'new important technique' is called cloning (in combination with reverse engineering). 
Nowadays you are an 'engine author' when you know how to download a source, change the id name and id author strings it prints, and know how to compile it.
Otherwise little has changed.
Nowadays you are an 'engine author' when you know how to download a source, change the id name and id author strings it prints, and know how to compile it.Otherwise little has changed.
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lucasart
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Re: Developments of the last two years
Yes, it's beautiful. What you do is
* take IvanHoe's source code
* make some trivial modifications (that are in 99% attempted cases regressions)
* compile it, give it another name, and preferably not provide the source code (who needs source code? who cares about GPL?)
* and, of course, parade around with your new super strong engine, pretending you are some kind of genious (fast learner to say the least)
With that amazing new technique, anyone (even the dumbest) can make a 3200 elo engine in an hour!
You would be amazed at the proliferation of these "engines".
* take IvanHoe's source code
* make some trivial modifications (that are in 99% attempted cases regressions)
* compile it, give it another name, and preferably not provide the source code (who needs source code? who cares about GPL?)
* and, of course, parade around with your new super strong engine, pretending you are some kind of genious (fast learner to say the least)
With that amazing new technique, anyone (even the dumbest) can make a 3200 elo engine in an hour!
You would be amazed at the proliferation of these "engines".
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.
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jd1
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Re: Developments of the last two years
Sad but true 
And it is amazing how much attention these clones get, more than many active original engines.
Obviously I don't have a problem with derivatives, but to be considered a programmer one should be able to make non-trivial changes; even so, writing an original engine is a much greater achivement IMHO, regardless of the strength.
Jerry
And it is amazing how much attention these clones get, more than many active original engines.Obviously I don't have a problem with derivatives, but to be considered a programmer one should be able to make non-trivial changes; even so, writing an original engine is a much greater achivement IMHO, regardless of the strength.
Jerry
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velmarin
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Re: Developments of the last two years
OH, is very clear, all agree,
Original, much better, much better, are wonderful, but I am one of the outlaws cloners, still trying to finish my original.
If deep'm envious, I admit, I hope someday.
But Aaron Friend, you think that in two years can people outside all this tumultuous Inquisition, who has not lived this world of hatred (Fruit, Rybka, Ippolit, Houdini, critter, robodini, ect, ect)
They are PUBLIC DOMAIN engine, an engine that technically gives another hundred laps,
and legally decide to develop it.
Sure they find that the "old place" has the right to insult you, call plagiarism hexedit call, call you all, and without the right of reply.
Moreover in these two years, practically the "originals" are somewhat stagnant, I have not seen a single idea in any of the literature, only a transfer of ideas from one program to another.
Then welcome his return.
Original, much better, much better, are wonderful, but I am one of the outlaws cloners, still trying to finish my original.
If deep'm envious, I admit, I hope someday.
But Aaron Friend, you think that in two years can people outside all this tumultuous Inquisition, who has not lived this world of hatred (Fruit, Rybka, Ippolit, Houdini, critter, robodini, ect, ect)
They are PUBLIC DOMAIN engine, an engine that technically gives another hundred laps,
and legally decide to develop it.
Sure they find that the "old place" has the right to insult you, call plagiarism hexedit call, call you all, and without the right of reply.
Moreover in these two years, practically the "originals" are somewhat stagnant, I have not seen a single idea in any of the literature, only a transfer of ideas from one program to another.
Then welcome his return.
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hgm
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Re: Developments of the last two years
For the record: I have absolutely nothing against derivatives. I have something against people that lie about their engine being original, or lie about which engine their derivative is based on.
One day I might even make my own derivative. It seems fun to try if I can modify Ippolit to play Seirawan Chess. (I already have a name for it: Ippocryt! )
But of course my admiration / respect for people is related to their achievements. And I rate the achievement of producing a 3000+ Elo Ivanhoe clone a lot below producing a 2000-Elo engine from scratch. In most cases, the making of these 'top engines' rates about as high as being able to write a 'Hello world' program, as far as I am concerned.
One day I might even make my own derivative. It seems fun to try if I can modify Ippolit to play Seirawan Chess. (I already have a name for it: Ippocryt!
)But of course my admiration / respect for people is related to their achievements. And I rate the achievement of producing a 3000+ Elo Ivanhoe clone a lot below producing a 2000-Elo engine from scratch. In most cases, the making of these 'top engines' rates about as high as being able to write a 'Hello world' program, as far as I am concerned.
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michiguel
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Re: Developments of the last two years
Wise decision!Aaron Becker wrote:About two years ago, I stopped developing Daydreamer, my own engine, because it was taking up time that I needed to spend on school.
Not a wise decision!
Now I have more free time again and have been thinking about coming back to computer chess
Welcome back Aaron!
, and I was wondering what's been going on in the last few years.
I see some new names among engine developers, and certainly the engines at the top are stronger. Have there been any important new techniques developed, or are the improvements due to something else, maybe just incremental tuning.
In short, what did I miss?
Miguel
PS: Dr. Becker?
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lucasart
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Re: Developments of the last two years
You're so right Miguel! Chess programming is such a waste of time, really. And it's addictive, so once you delve into it, it's very hard to quit.michiguel wrote:Wise decision!Aaron Becker wrote: About two years ago, I stopped developing Daydreamer, my own engine, because it was taking up time that I needed to spend on school.Not a wise decision!Now I have more free time again and have been thinking about coming back to computer chess
But to answer the original question, I don't think there has been any breakthrough since Fruit and Glaurung. Then it was all about fine tuning, but no new ground breaking idea.
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.
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lucasart
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Re: Developments of the last two years
Yet another example. This time the source code was not even modified (just added intel intrinsics), and the only "achievement" of the "author" was to use a better compiler:hgm wrote: But of course my admiration / respect for people is related to their achievements. And I rate the achievement of producing a 3000+ Elo Ivanhoe clone a lot below producing a 2000-Elo engine from scratch. In most cases, the making of these 'top engines' rates about as high as being able to write a 'Hello world' program, as far as I am concerned.
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47343
I laughed so much when I read the passage about Thomas Eddison. Seriously, some people vastly overrate themselves...
But, at least, the GPL was respected, which is the only good thing about it.
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.
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Rebel
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Re: Developments of the last two years
Nice one.hgm wrote:One day I might even make my own derivative. It seems fun to try if I can modify Ippolit to play Seirawan Chess. (I already have a name for it: Ippocryt!
Even beats Robbodini.