Diep?

[Zach Wegner]

What happened to Diep in CCT? It looks like it withdrew after the 4th round...

[Zatarra]

Well skinner decided to enforce certain rules by a) forcing the result of dieps game with hiarcs a loss (it would lose eventually during all the arguing) b) kicking diep out of the tournament

skinner avoided enforcing other rules in the tourney, but felt since diep was whispering instead of kibitzing that was a bad enough offense to kick him out of the tourney. /boggle

Other engines not kib'ing remained. and other engines violating rule 2a1 remained. I guess its ok to enforce one rule like stalin and another rule like jimmy carter.

[Graham Banks]

Well skinner decided to enforce certain rules by a) forcing the result of dieps game with hiarcs a loss (it would lose eventually during all the arguing) b) kicking diep out of the tournament

skinner avoided enforcing other rules in the tourney, but felt since diep was whispering instead of kibitzing that was a bad enough offense to kick him out of the tourney. /boggle

Other engines not kib'ing remained. and other engines violating rule 2a1 remained. I guess its ok to enforce one rule like stalin and another rule like jimmy carter.

I guess a lot could also depend on the cooperation and attitude of the participant in question? Or circumstances we're unaware of?

[mathmoi]

Well skinner decided to enforce certain rules by a) forcing the result of dieps game with hiarcs a loss (it would lose eventually during all the arguing) b) kicking diep out of the tournament

skinner avoided enforcing other rules in the tourney, but felt since diep was whispering instead of kibitzing that was a bad enough offense to kick him out of the tourney. /boggle

Other engines not kib'ing remained. and other engines violating rule 2a1 remained. I guess its ok to enforce one rule like stalin and another rule like jimmy carter.

I guess a lot could also depend on the cooperation and attitude of the participant in question? Or circumstances we're unaware of?

Hi,

I don't want to enter the debate, but I want to say that is not all the story indeed. The game was adjudicated as a lost because Vincent *refused* to comply with the kibitz rule. The other engine that did not kibitz at the time was willing to comply, but not able to. After some time (maybe an hour later, maybe more, i'm not sure) the other engine did comply with the rule.

After the game was adjudicated as a lost Vincent made lots of accusations regarding the TD and some participants in CCT. All without proof and showing no respect for the TD, the Hiarcs team and 3 other participants that he did not named, but accused of using Rybka in the tournament. He then left. However to be fair, I don't think he would have been allowed to continue his participation. Nor do I think he should have.

To resume, I think the TD call was right. Maybe the other engine should have received the same call, but the situation was not the same (unable to comply vs refused to comply). The attack of Vincent on the td and some participant was unacceptable.

Just my opinion.

PS : Be warned that MI5 is probably monitoring this thread

[Graham Banks]

I don't want to enter the debate, but I want to say that is not all the story indeed. The game was adjudicated as a lost because Vincent *refused* to comply with the kibitz rule. The other engine that did not kibitz at the time was willing to comply, but not able to. After some time (maybe an hour later, maybe more, i'm not sure) the other engine did comply with the rule.

After the game was adjudicated as a lost Vincent made lots of accusations regarding the TD and some participants in CCT. All without proof and showing no respect for the TD, the Hiarcs team and 3 other participants that he did not named, but accused of using Rybka in the tournament. He then left. However to be fair, I don't think he would have been allowed to continue his participation. Nor do I think he should have.

To resume, I think the TD call was right. Maybe the other engine should have received the same call, but the situation was not the same (unable to comply vs refused to comply). The attack of Vincent on the td and some participant was unacceptable.

Just my opinion.

PS : Be warned that MI5 is probably monitoring this thread

Thanks for the clarification. Hasn't this sort of thing happened previously? Disappointing really because Diep had played quite nicely.

Cheers,
Graham.

[BubbaTough]

The issue mostly revolves around DIEP's withdrawal, not the forfeit. If memory serves, DIEP was lost by the time he received the forfeit. I did not look at the game, but I remember Diep honorably congratulated his opponent for a well played opening and victory.

The conflict centered around an extensive and prolonged verbal assault on the tournament director combined with a continuous claim that that he could follow the rules but was choosing not to. You had to be there to appreciate how significant the verbal attack on Peter was...Diep put him in a position where he really had no choice but to remove him from the tournament. Peter resisted for over half an hour which is longer than I would have lasted.

-Sam

[Zatarra]

No , Vincent got angry and lost his cool once diep was forfeited and removed from tournament, not before. Of course that would upset you. No comments were made prior to that. Yeah it became personal after that, but removing him and forfeiting him was a bit over the top considering the reasons why diep doesnt kibitz during tourneys.(see below)

No comments were made prior to that. And at the point the 'adjudication' occured, yes hiarcs had an advantage, but it wasnt over yet.

In CCT11 we were playing against a *new* engine and author, and it was playing amazingly well, and beating us. Oddly though we noticed every single move we kibitzed PV- it played the same exact line. thats statistically improbable over the course of 20 moves (but ok maybe it could happen). The very same move we switched from kib-->whisper the moves began to deviate and continued to deviate and diep went on to win the match.

Now you might say, "you dont have proof he *somehow* used the kibitzed info to assist him" and you are correct because the only way i could get proof is to get ahold of his code and hope it was the *same* code he played with, of course. So we gave up on that and decided the best manner is to whisper.

All the same information is there- and we moved this tourney to FICS because of the free accounts right? So anyone can make a 2nd account and observe the match and see all the evals. We were hiding nothing- just not handing any info to the opponent engine.

Considering the dubious nature of so much of the chess arena in todays programming circle- this is NOT a far fetched crazy plan as some might have you believe. Do you think someone who would copy rybka would hesitate to modify some code to read kibs? And while im not saying anyone there copied rybka- these people DO exist, we CAN agree on that right? And if they do exist, eventually they find their way into these tourneys- period.

The lack of enforcement of rule 2a1 and I quote:

"2a1. The author must be online during the tournament to participate in discussions in channel 64, and in the event there is an issue with their program they can provide real time support to their operator."

does not at all meet with the methods of enforcement imposed on Diep.

Also in games prior, we requested other engines whisper their eval - and this fell on deaf ears. But when its time to drop the hammer on Diep, man lets do it!

Im not a conspiracy theorist, but this wasnt handled on a level playing field for all participants. And now you have robbed points from anyone who drew/lost to diep in the first few rounds. Like Sjengx, who almost lost!

And again, pete removed him from the tourney and forfeited the game at the same time. This is what sparked the arguing.

[Damir]

Hehehe. isn't this kind of thing what makes CCT events interesting ?

[Graham Banks]

In CCT11 we were playing against a *new* engine and author

How long have you been involved with Diep? I've not heard your name previously, but that's just me.

Cheers,
Graham.

[Eelco de Groot]

Oh well, that is just Vincent and his fight agains the clones and conspiracies in general I suppose. I mean, I wasn't there, but we all can roughly imagine the general tenor of such exchanges. He doesn't quite seem himself lately talking about Rybka. Apologies for my countryman.

Eelco