World Computer Chess Championship ?

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Adam Hair
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Adam Hair »

Joerg Oster wrote:Gerd, now you're talking about the Rybka case. I intentionally didn't mention this. (But as a sidenote: it didn't need Fabien to make the accusation. Every programmer with founded suspicions could have done this. Remember 2003, WCCC in Graz, List case! And there are others. You know this, of course!)

But why didn't the programmers react when Ippolit & Co. appeared?
The programmers did not act, by way of the ICGA, in the case of Ippolit because the engine was not used to compete in an ICGA event.

I have seen no situation where the ICGA tried to make itself the arbitrator of which engines are legitimate and which engines are not. The computer chess community decides that. The ICGA decides which engines are allowed to play in its tournaments, and nothing more.
Gerd Isenberg
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Gerd Isenberg »

Joerg Oster wrote:Gerd, now you're talking about the Rybka case. I intentionally didn't mention this. (But as a sidenote: it didn't need Fabien to make the accusation. Every programmer with founded suspicions could have done this. Remember 2003, WCCC in Graz, List case! And there are others. You know this, of course!)

But why didn't the programmers react when Ippolit & Co. appeared?
Ippolit did not participate in ICGA events. What reaction do you mean? To investigate Rybka after to Vasik's reaction on the Ippolit appearance?
Adam Hair
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Adam Hair »

Carotino wrote:You could make two categories: pure engines (aryans) and impure engines. In the second case, during contests, the programmers should wear a armband with a yellow star...

But I am sure that the pure, they would still be arguing with each other, about who is more pure or less pure! Every day there would be an accusation:

"you are not 100% pure, but only 99%. I, instead, are extra pure! "

"You have copied something because your engine, every 50 moves, makes a move like mine ! "
Why the exaggeration, Roberto?
rodolfoleoni
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by rodolfoleoni »

Joerg Oster wrote:........................

But why didn't the programmers react when Ippolit & Co. appeared?
Could it be that all programmers let Vas react against Ippos, but he couldn't produce any proof? The fact he "lost" R3 sources? (Maybe, it wasn't convenient to give its sources as a proof?) The fact it was not easy to act against anonymous authors?

Just some guesses...

Maybe each single programmer had no interest to act, to possibly invest own resources. Why? To defend Vasik commercial interests?
Rodolfo (The Baron Team)
mcostalba
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by mcostalba »

Adam Hair wrote: Why the exaggeration, Roberto?
Carotino pissed out of the closet this time :shock:
Adam Hair
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Adam Hair »

mcostalba wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote: But why didn't the programmers react when Ippolit & Co. appeared?
The programmers reacted immediately...reading the sources and taking all the good ideas :-) I have done so, and I am sure I was not the only one (of course all the top engine authors did the same).

But I see that we are mixing two differnt topics here.

The first topic is the right of a tournament organization to allow the engines that they want, publishing some rules that engines must follow to be allowed in the tournament. I have nothing against this, I can also decide to make a tournament with all the engines that start with 'Sto' and end with 'fish' :-) or anything else that it comes to my mind: torunament is mine and I decide who is in and who is out.

The second topic (and the object of my criticism) is to call my above tournament "World Chess Championship". This is something that IMO is very pretending from the tournament organizizers, and, in this case is, IMHO, absolutely baseless becuase those 11 engines in no way represent the "World".
And yet, it is a competition that has been held 19 times, starting in 1974. And at one time, the term "World Computer Chess Championship" was applicable. I do not find it pretending on the part of the organizers to call it the World Championship.

However, I do think they need to see the trend (lower participation) and adjust to the times. The field of authors is much larger and diverse than it once was. Many can not afford to travel to China or to Japan (were these legitimate locations for WCCC tournaments or vacations?). Even holding the event in the Netherlands, while great for Dutch participants, is not a great locale for competitors who live much farther away. Instead of expecting the authors to come to the ICGA, the ICGA needs to come to the authors to increase interest/participation. By that, I mean entice more authors to interact with the ICGA. In terms of the WCCC, I think that there should be satellite locations in addition to the main tournament location. For example (not to be American-centric), the possibility of a satellite location in the US may have enticed several American authors to participate. Also, having two divisions, one for original programs and one open to all programs, may increase interest.

My suggestions may have little merit, but it is obvious that the title "World Computer Chess Champion" has much less import in the aftermath of the Rybka affair. I have to sort of agree with you, Marco. The title is baseless at the moment. The ICGA needs to do some work to increase the interest of computer chess programmers. It would be sad to see it become totally irrelevant in the computer chess community, given its origins and its role in the history of computer chess.
Adam Hair
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Adam Hair »

mcostalba wrote:
Adam Hair wrote: Why the exaggeration, Roberto?
Carotino pissed out of the closet this time :shock:
Maybe. :?

But we should give him a chance to clarify. It can not be easy to express one's self subtly in a second language. I imagine if I tried to express myself in Italian (which I can not, I barely remember the Latin I studied as a schoolboy, and I never studied Italian), I would insult you more than once without intending to.
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Laskos
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Laskos »

Adam Hair wrote:
mcostalba wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote: But why didn't the programmers react when Ippolit & Co. appeared?
The programmers reacted immediately...reading the sources and taking all the good ideas :-) I have done so, and I am sure I was not the only one (of course all the top engine authors did the same).

But I see that we are mixing two differnt topics here.

The first topic is the right of a tournament organization to allow the engines that they want, publishing some rules that engines must follow to be allowed in the tournament. I have nothing against this, I can also decide to make a tournament with all the engines that start with 'Sto' and end with 'fish' :-) or anything else that it comes to my mind: torunament is mine and I decide who is in and who is out.

The second topic (and the object of my criticism) is to call my above tournament "World Chess Championship". This is something that IMO is very pretending from the tournament organizizers, and, in this case is, IMHO, absolutely baseless becuase those 11 engines in no way represent the "World".
And yet, it is a competition that has been held 19 times, starting in 1974. And at one time, the term "World Computer Chess Championship" was applicable. I do not find it pretending on the part of the organizers to call it the World Championship.

However, I do think they need to see the trend (lower participation) and adjust to the times. The field of authors is much larger and diverse than it once was. Many can not afford to travel to China or to Japan (were these legitimate locations for WCCC tournaments or vacations?). Even holding the event in the Netherlands, while great for Dutch participants, is not a great locale for competitors who live much farther away. Instead of expecting the authors to come to the ICGA, the ICGA needs to come to the authors to increase interest/participation. By that, I mean entice more authors to interact with the ICGA. In terms of the WCCC, I think that there should be satellite locations in addition to the main tournament location. For example (not to be American-centric), the possibility of a satellite location in the US may have enticed several American authors to participate. Also, having two divisions, one for original programs and one open to all programs, may increase interest.

My suggestions may have little merit, but it is obvious that the title "World Computer Chess Champion" has much less import in the aftermath of the Rybka affair. I have to sort of agree with you, Marco. The title is baseless at the moment. The ICGA needs to do some work to increase the interest of computer chess programmers. It would be sad to see it become totally irrelevant in the computer chess community, given its origins and its role in the history of computer chess.
WCCC was useful in 70-80es, when strength differences were 200-300 Elo points between the nearest competing engines/hardware, and could be decided in 10-12 games. Nowadays the engine differences are 20-50 points, 10-12 games are useless to determine anything other than maybe a ridiculous hardware used, no matter where and how ICGA/WCCC is held.

Kai
rodolfoleoni
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by rodolfoleoni »

Adam Hair wrote:..................

In terms of the WCCC, I think that there should be satellite locations in addition to the main tournament location. For example (not to be American-centric), the possibility of a satellite location in the US may have enticed several American authors to participate. Also, having two divisions, one for original programs and one open to all programs, may increase interest.

.......................................
I think your idea of satellite locations is great, and it should be supported by programmers. An open letter to ICGA about that would be needed.

About the "open" division, I doubt ICGA could consider it seriously, because there's danger of legitimate clones/cloning activity.
Rodolfo (The Baron Team)
Joerg Oster
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Joerg Oster »

So everything is fine unless they participate in an ICGA event?

Oh, I finally understand ...
Jörg Oster