CCT: Update to rules for future events

[bob]

I second Bob's suggestion, but I would not call it draconian if N is reasonable. If is unfortunate, but the connection is part of the "chess entity" that is participating.

In fact, it follows the concept that the operator should have the minimum interference in the game. If the operator "decides" not to claim the win, it is in fact a huge interference, not only in that particular game, but in the whole tournament. It could easily benefit or harm a third party.

Miguel

I have changed the rule to:

Disconnection/Forfeit Rules

1. In the event of a disconnection, the party will be given 10 minutes to return to complete the game; and no more than 2 disconnections per game will be allowed. On the third time, the game will be a forfeit. This is absolute. Under no circumstances will the game continue.

Peter

I think that is a good rule. It avoids the situation where 2 different programs take 15 minutes but one is forfeited and the other isn't and this makes the results rather arbitrary and unfair.

I would suggest that if the next round has already begun it's too late to "notice" that this happened.

Is there a way to quickly determine and check each program before you schedule another round? Can't you grep the logs looking for the key word that represents a disconnection? Maybe the log says something like this: "Program Komodo disconnected" and you can just grep for the string "disconnect"?

I would also suggest that the rule not be based on how many disconnections but the total length of them. It is common when suffering Internet glitches to get several short disconnects then it's ok - not 1 long one. If you disconnect for 3 times but they are only for a few seconds, is it that really big a deal?

I don't know what the logs look like, but I would be willing to write a simple script that would scan them and add up the total length of all the disconnects for each program and also how many disconnects and any other relevant statistics. That would make it trivial for you to handle it. I would of course need an example of the logs where program disconnected.

I don't like the time idea. Allows manipulation of results. If your opponent disconnects, and you are using xboard, your program is terminated and restarted to prepare for the next game. No pondering. Losing hash and everything else. If we allow 10 minutes total time, I could have crafty disconnect right before each move it makes, to kill opponent's ponder hits. And it can reconnect in a fraction of a second since it runs on a gigabit (all the way to internet backbone) connection.

If my program disconnects on the server does it stop your program? The programs are not connected to each other, just to the server, right?

If I am wrong about this then I agree with you - there should be a limit. But I don't think disconnecting affects the other program.

It would not effect Hiarcs if the opponent disconnects it would continue to ponder.

A GUI _can_ do this if it wants, it can just ignore the indication from ICC that the game has temporarily ended. And it can ignore the indication from ICC that the game has been re-started as well. But most GUIs do not do this. None I am aware of, in fact. Certainly not xboard that most of us Unix users depend on. I would not want it to behave like that, personally. If a human opponent disconnects and won't return until tomorrow, do I want to not play any more games until he returns?

Hiarcs would claim the win when his flag dropped. However I do not like the multiple disconnect rule either. I think the 2 disconnect rule is just fine.

Not going to happen on a server. You can't claim a win after an opponent disconnects. The game is no longer active, regardless of what the GUI thinks. The GUI may choose to hold the current game state and let the engine keep on pondering, but it is not going to be able to claim a win, because the game has been suspended already. The GUI can ignore the game resumption, since it still has an engine in a valid state, but the GUI is going to be way off on its clock values until it syncs up with ICC.

Depends which server you are talking about. On Playchess a win would be given after the flag drops.

I hate to say this, but "who cares"? We are not going to host tournaments on a server with an exclusive GUI that is windows-only. All of the past CCT/ACCA events have been either on ICC or FICS.

As far as playchess goes, do you have to sit for the entire game if your opponent disconnects, waiting for him to return while the clock runs? That's not exactly an "online" concept. Would be nice for tournaments, but not normal games.

You did say on any server. No you do not have to sit there you just press the claim win on disconnect button.

I do not even consider playchess to be a "server". Only servers that would be or have been used to host CCT/ACCA events were considered in that comment.

[Sean Evans]

I do not even consider playchess to be a "server". Only servers that would be or have been used to host CCT/ACCA events were considered in that comment.

Playchess.com is a low grade server used as a marketing tool to get people to buy Chessbase products. The administrators are kids and you get what you pay for, nothing!

In addition, why separate chess engines from humans? And why so many playchess subforums? Put everyone in the same chess club and play.

Cordially,

Sean

[Don]

No. The _game_ is stopped and saved in a "to be resumed" state. But when you disconnect, my program is instantly stopped by xboard and the server as the game is no longer in process. You would not want the game to continue if the opponent won't be back until tomorrow, with you sitting all night not playing.

Then I agree with you. There should be some kind of limit on how many times this is allowed to happen and Peter's new rule is good.

In an ideal world you can just go by the clock (but this is no possible here) - if you lose your connection your clock keeps running and you are free to disconnect as much as your clock allows. In this way your are not suddenly punished for a disconnect but it's in proportion to your actual troubles and has zero affect on the tournament time schedule.

If I am wrong about this then I agree with you - there should be a limit. But I don't think disconnecting affects the other program.

Give it a try. It _instantly_ affects the other program.

[Harvey Williamson]

I do not even consider playchess to be a "server". Only servers that would be or have been used to host CCT/ACCA events were considered in that comment.

Playchess.com is a low grade server used as a marketing tool to get people to buy Chessbase products. The administrators are kids and you get what you pay for, nothing!

In addition, why separate chess engines from humans? And why so many playchess subforums? Put everyone in the same chess club and play.

Cordially,

Sean

I think Bob should only comment on servers he has knowledge of. i would not comment on servers i have not visited. 1000's currently on Playchess and several Top GM's today. Just because you have never been there does not give you reason to criticise it.

Admins are kids?! I would guess the average age is over 40.

[bob]

I do not even consider playchess to be a "server". Only servers that would be or have been used to host CCT/ACCA events were considered in that comment.

Playchess.com is a low grade server used as a marketing tool to get people to buy Chessbase products. The administrators are kids and you get what you pay for, nothing!

In addition, why separate chess engines from humans? And why so many playchess subforums? Put everyone in the same chess club and play.

Cordially,

Sean

I think Bob should only comment on servers he has knowledge of. i would not comment on servers i have not visited. 1000's currently on Playchess and several Top GM's today. Just because you have never been there does not give you reason to criticise it.

Admins are kids?! I would guess the average age is over 40.

When playchess came about, it used a single proprietary interface, which did not have a Linux-compatible client version. Whether that is still true or not, I do not know, but it was "exclusive" for long enough that it never produced any interest in me since I don't run windoze anywhere. ICC and FICS have _always_ provided clients for both windows and Unix...

[Harvey Williamson]

I do not even consider playchess to be a "server". Only servers that would be or have been used to host CCT/ACCA events were considered in that comment.

Playchess.com is a low grade server used as a marketing tool to get people to buy Chessbase products. The administrators are kids and you get what you pay for, nothing!

In addition, why separate chess engines from humans? And why so many playchess subforums? Put everyone in the same chess club and play.

Cordially,

Sean

I think Bob should only comment on servers he has knowledge of. i would not comment on servers i have not visited. 1000's currently on Playchess and several Top GM's today. Just because you have never been there does not give you reason to criticise it.

Admins are kids?! I would guess the average age is over 40.

When playchess came about, it used a single proprietary interface, which did not have a Linux-compatible client version. Whether that is still true or not, I do not know, but it was "exclusive" for long enough that it never produced any interest in me since I don't run windoze anywhere. ICC and FICS have _always_ provided clients for both windows and Unix...

In the real world 90% + of users use Windows. I don't have a problem with those who do not except when they criticise things they know nothing about.

[Sean Evans]

I do not even consider playchess to be a "server". Only servers that would be or have been used to host CCT/ACCA events were considered in that comment.

Playchess.com is a low grade server used as a marketing tool to get people to buy Chessbase products. The administrators are kids and you get what you pay for, nothing!

In addition, why separate chess engines from humans? And why so many playchess subforums? Put everyone in the same chess club and play.

Cordially,

Sean

I think Bob should only comment on servers he has knowledge of. i would not comment on servers i have not visited. 1000's currently on Playchess and several Top GM's today. Just because you have never been there does not give you reason to criticise it.

Admins are kids?! I would guess the average age is over 40.

Your guess would be way wrong. Perhaps, you should gather the facts before you spout off about things you know nothing about.

Cordially,

Sean

[bob]

I do not even consider playchess to be a "server". Only servers that would be or have been used to host CCT/ACCA events were considered in that comment.

Playchess.com is a low grade server used as a marketing tool to get people to buy Chessbase products. The administrators are kids and you get what you pay for, nothing!

In addition, why separate chess engines from humans? And why so many playchess subforums? Put everyone in the same chess club and play.

Cordially,

Sean

I think Bob should only comment on servers he has knowledge of. i would not comment on servers i have not visited. 1000's currently on Playchess and several Top GM's today. Just because you have never been there does not give you reason to criticise it.

Admins are kids?! I would guess the average age is over 40.

When playchess came about, it used a single proprietary interface, which did not have a Linux-compatible client version. Whether that is still true or not, I do not know, but it was "exclusive" for long enough that it never produced any interest in me since I don't run windoze anywhere. ICC and FICS have _always_ provided clients for both windows and Unix...

In the real world 90% + of users use Windows. I don't have a problem with those who do not except when they criticise things they know nothing about.

I criticized it for one specific reason, which is 100% accurate. At the time I looked at it, there were no unix clients (no idea if there are any now). And that was enough to close the subject for me. I don't care if 90% of the people run windows. I don't always "follow the masses." 90% of people worry about viruses. I don't. 90% worry about crashes. I don't. 90% have to pay tons of money for new versions and compilers and such. I don't...

lemmings are not the smartest creatures on the planet...

[Harvey Williamson]

I do not even consider playchess to be a "server". Only servers that would be or have been used to host CCT/ACCA events were considered in that comment.

Playchess.com is a low grade server used as a marketing tool to get people to buy Chessbase products. The administrators are kids and you get what you pay for, nothing!

In addition, why separate chess engines from humans? And why so many playchess subforums? Put everyone in the same chess club and play.

Cordially,

Sean

I think Bob should only comment on servers he has knowledge of. i would not comment on servers i have not visited. 1000's currently on Playchess and several Top GM's today. Just because you have never been there does not give you reason to criticise it.

Admins are kids?! I would guess the average age is over 40.

Your guess would be way wrong. Perhaps, you should gather the facts before you spout off about things you know nothing about.

Cordially,

Sean

I do claim to be an expert when it comes to who the admins are, yes.

[CThinker]

Can't we simply use the logs to determine the disconnections?

Also, I think it should be made clear that the disconnection rule is for a game in progress and does not apply to a suspended game.

Example 1:

1) Engine A and engine B starts a game.
2) Engine A disconnects.
3) The game is suspended.
4) Engine B disconnects.
5) Engine B re-connects.
6) Engine A re-connects.
7) Game resumes.
8) Engine B disconnects.

In this case, engine B should only be counted as having disconnected once.

Example 2:
1) Engine A and engine B starts a game.
2) Engine A disconnects.
3) The game is suspended.
4) Engine A re-connects.
5) Engine A disconnects.

In this case, engine A should be counted as having disconnected only once. Of course, engine A still has to meet the 10-minute rule for resuming the game.