About strelka1.8 sources

[Tony Thomas]

And you are sure what you have seen is really 1.8?
If you haven't compared the compiled source you seem to have
received to the released exe you should be very careful to
announce such things.

The source code I have uses Windows-specific functions, and therefore doesn't compile on my Mac. It's possible that doing the necessary changes would be easy, but I haven't tried. Anyway, even if I were able to compile it, I wouldn't be able to make any comparison, because I can't use the Windows binary version of Strelka.

Anyway, I don't see why it is necessary that I do such a comparison, as other people have already done so. Of course it is theoretically possible that the source code I was sent is different from the one sent to Dann, Uri and others, but this seems to silly to be plausible.

Tord

Well, _no one_ has it yet compared to the released version!
It was much time to clean it up meanwhile to let it look
less cloney, even if I don't know why someone should do this,
because the 'author' himself claimed he has cloned parts of Fruit
and Rybka... The whole new discussion seems fruitless to me,
except Sergei wants to use the source now for his own commercial
SmarThink, which would raise a lot of questions and issues.

Guenther

From what I have read, all these things that the author said was at a Russian forum, and as far as I know you dont speak russian.

[GS]

And you are sure what you have seen is really 1.8?
If you haven't compared the compiled source you seem to have
received to the released exe you should be very careful to
announce such things.

The source code I have uses Windows-specific functions, and therefore doesn't compile on my Mac. It's possible that doing the necessary changes would be easy, but I haven't tried. Anyway, even if I were able to compile it, I wouldn't be able to make any comparison, because I can't use the Windows binary version of Strelka.

Anyway, I don't see why it is necessary that I do such a comparison, as other people have already done so. Of course it is theoretically possible that the source code I was sent is different from the one sent to Dann, Uri and others, but this seems to silly to be plausible.

Tord

Well, _no one_ has it yet compared to the released version!
It was much time to clean it up meanwhile to let it look
less cloney, even if I don't know why someone should do this,
because the 'author' himself claimed he has cloned parts of Fruit
and Rybka... The whole new discussion seems fruitless to me,
except Sergei wants to use the source now for his own commercial
SmarThink, which would raise a lot of questions and issues.

Guenther

From what I have read, all these things that the author said was at a Russian forum, and as far as I know you dont speak russian.

Tony are we in the middleage again?
Why do we need to repeat old history?
Russians translated his post and I guess Russians are
able to speak Russian ;)
Do you have any reason to deny what was already a fact
months ago?

Guenther

[GenoM]

Guenther
first of all -- I am not russian, I am bulgarian
second -- IMO there was a very fine psichological play in Osipov appearences in KasparovChess forum. Its too complicated to explain it, but its my feeling:
Osipov wanted that ComputerChess Community believed that his Strelka was a clone. But in fact -- Strelka is not a clone. He was joking. He made fools all of CCC-members that selfestimate theirselves as computer-chess experts and who believed Strelka is a clone. That was his game He just laughed at you.
Just my opinion of course

Best regards,
Geno

[geots]

Guenther
first of all -- I am not russian, I am bulgarian
second -- IMO there was a very fine psichological play in Osipov appearences in KasparovChess forum. Its too complicated to explain it, but its my feeling:
Osipov wanted that ComputerChess Community believed that his Strelka was a clone. But in fact -- Strelka is not a clone. He was joking. He made fools all of CCC-members that selfestimate theirselves as computer-chess experts and who believed Strelka is a clone. That was his game He just laughed at you.
Just my opinion of course

Best regards,
Geno

This sounds very possible to me, and i must admit some members here deserved just what they got. We have some members here that go by the old axiom - "When in danger and in doubt- run in circles, scream and shout."

Best To You,

[Dann Corbit]

Guenther
first of all -- I am not russian, I am bulgarian
second -- IMO there was a very fine psichological play in Osipov appearences in KasparovChess forum. Its too complicated to explain it, but its my feeling:
Osipov wanted that ComputerChess Community believed that his Strelka was a clone. But in fact -- Strelka is not a clone. He was joking. He made fools all of CCC-members that selfestimate theirselves as computer-chess experts and who believed Strelka is a clone. That was his game He just laughed at you.
Just my opinion of course

Best regards,
Geno

I guess that there is a simpler explanation. I guess that Yuri cannot speak English at all. I guess he does not know what 'clone' means.

I don't see another logical explanation.

Anyway, Fabian has the sources for Strelka now (with permission) and he is going to examine them. I think it will put to bed any remaining doubt about Strelka being a 'fruit clone' [one way or the other!]

[Tord Romstad]

Well, _no one_ has it yet compared to the released version!

Huh? Dann has done so in this very thread. The scores, the PV and the node counts were identical for the released version and the binary Dann compiled himself.

It was much time to clean it up meanwhile to let it look
less cloney, even if I don't know why someone should do this,
because the 'author' himself claimed he has cloned parts of Fruit
and Rybka...

The source code I have is certainly far from a clone of Fruit or any other program I know (although it resembles Fruit somewhat, in a similar way that Glaurung 1.x resembles Phalanx). Whatever Osipov has written in a message translated from Russian and taken out of context does not change this fact.

The whole new discussion seems fruitless to me,

To me, too. Every single person who has seen the source code agrees that Strelka is not a clone of any program they know. When this is not enough to convince people, I'm afraid nothing will.



Tord

[matejst]

It seems that when somebody wants to obtain the code of a new interesting engine, he's got only to claim that it is a clone. If somebody else got the code and claims it is not a clone, you continue asserting that he wants to use that code in his own engine, and he's, of course, wrong or dishonnest. If you can't get the code, you don't stop till the engine becomes open source.

So...

I am quite certain that Shredder, Rybka and Hiarcs are clones. They have the same PV when mating in three.javascript:emoticon(':D') They also have the same PV when mating in two. javascript:emoticon(':D')

Regards!

BS

[GS]

Well, _no one_ has it yet compared to the released version!

Huh? Dann has done so in this very thread. The scores, the PV and the node counts were identical for the released version and the binary Dann compiled himself.

Tord isn't it possible to get more logical again? Danns post which only
covers the start position BTW was _after_ my post.
Second if we would deduce from one position it is the same as the
released 1.8 version months or whatever time ago, also fine, but what
about all the _hundreds positions_ which showed the _same_ output
than a certain Rybka version just with an added depth +2 and an exact
score added?
I guess people just have to wait several months until certain proofs are
gone or simply forgotten. IMHO it is impossible that independent
programs can produce that similar output over such a lot of positions.
I am sure you ask again now what positions? what crisis?
History always repeats sigh...

It was much time to clean it up meanwhile to let it look
less cloney, even if I don't know why someone should do this,
because the 'author' himself claimed he has cloned parts of Fruit
and Rybka...

The source code I have is certainly far from a clone of Fruit or any other program I know (although it resembles Fruit somewhat, in a similar way that Glaurung 1.x resembles Phalanx). Whatever Osipov has written in a message translated from Russian and taken out of context does not change this fact.

...translated from Russian by Russians too, but I see nothing can
be said against it...

The whole new discussion seems fruitless to me,

To me, too. Every single person who has seen the source code agrees that Strelka is not a clone of any program they know. When this is not enough to convince people, I'm afraid nothing will.

:(

Tord

Of course we never had any clones. I stay with Tony Werten now, who
can follow me. BTW I am sure Vas hasn't seen that source yet?

Guenther

[geots]

Well, _no one_ has it yet compared to the released version!

Huh? Dann has done so in this very thread. The scores, the PV and the node counts were identical for the released version and the binary Dann compiled himself.

It was much time to clean it up meanwhile to let it look
less cloney, even if I don't know why someone should do this,
because the 'author' himself claimed he has cloned parts of Fruit
and Rybka...

The source code I have is certainly far from a clone of Fruit or any other program I know (although it resembles Fruit somewhat, in a similar way that Glaurung 1.x resembles Phalanx). Whatever Osipov has written in a message translated from Russian and taken out of context does not change this fact.

The whole new discussion seems fruitless to me,

To me, too. Every single person who has seen the source code agrees that Strelka is not a clone of any program they know. When this is not enough to convince people, I'm afraid nothing will.



Tord

Tord, this was my point from the beginning. Whe you have 5 Hall of Fame
computer chess experts- you, Hoffman, Dan, Uri and Alessandro, all claiming they have checked it and it is not a clone- what in God's name do they keep this up for. Im really sick and tired of all this. And thanks for your input.

Best to you always,

[Werner]

Of course we never had any clones. I stay with Tony Werten now, who
can follow me. BTW I am sure Vas hasn't seen that source yet?

Guenther

Hi Guenther,
I do not remember a programmer of a clone engine did send his code to other programmers, do you?
What if even Chris would say now: I did a look at the tables - this is not a clone?