Big new ideas in chess programming

[rtitle]

OK. I will concede the point that open source in and of itself does not guarantee success. There are examples of unsuccessful open source projects. You gave a good one: gnuchess was never a top program. However, I still claim open source is in general a superior development model. Look at some successful open-source projects and compare them against their closed-source competitors. Linux vs Windows. Eclipse vs Visual Studio. Apache vs IIS. Mozilla vs IE. And in all these examples the closed-source competitor has a multi-billion company funding them (Microsoft) but they still are losing. Whereas closed-source programs like Rybka and Houdini are basically just 1 guy each working at their small company.

Anyway, I think it's great that Stockfish is open source so developers like me can open it up and see how it's doing what it's doing. It's amazingly strong. Maybe someday I'll contribute to it, if I have the time. (My day job takes most of my time though!).

Cheers,

Rich Title

[Don]

OK. I will concede the point that open source in and of itself does not guarantee success. There are examples of unsuccessful open source projects. You gave a good one: gnuchess was never a top program. However, I still claim open source is in general a superior development model. Look at some successful open-source projects and compare them against their closed-source competitors. Linux vs Windows. Eclipse vs Visual Studio. Apache vs IIS. Mozilla vs IE. And in all these examples the closed-source competitor has a multi-billion company funding them (Microsoft) but they still are losing. Whereas closed-source programs like Rybka and Houdini are basically just 1 guy each working at their small company.

Anyway, I think it's great that Stockfish is open source so developers like me can open it up and see how it's doing what it's doing. It's amazingly strong. Maybe someday I'll contribute to it, if I have the time. (My day job takes most of my time though!).

Cheers,

Rich Title

Here is my take on it. Stockfish is strong primarily due to Tord's initial contribution and then later by Marco and Joona in no particular order. Look who is listed when you type "uci."

The recent additional success (SF has ALWAYS been successful) is due to the testing framework and harnessing the power of many machines. It has nothing to do with open source in this case although I agree with your statements in general. Open Source is really at its best for big projects, not projects like a chess programs. It is not a bad thing but I'm just saying that it's not the key in this case.

What is the key is something already said which I agree with, the testing framework. In fact Daylen Yang should be added to list of authors because all the recent improvements is due to this innovation.

[Joerg Oster]

OK. I will concede the point that open source in and of itself does not guarantee success. There are examples of unsuccessful open source projects. You gave a good one: gnuchess was never a top program. However, I still claim open source is in general a superior development model. Look at some successful open-source projects and compare them against their closed-source competitors. Linux vs Windows. Eclipse vs Visual Studio. Apache vs IIS. Mozilla vs IE. And in all these examples the closed-source competitor has a multi-billion company funding them (Microsoft) but they still are losing. Whereas closed-source programs like Rybka and Houdini are basically just 1 guy each working at their small company.

Anyway, I think it's great that Stockfish is open source so developers like me can open it up and see how it's doing what it's doing. It's amazingly strong. Maybe someday I'll contribute to it, if I have the time. (My day job takes most of my time though!).

Cheers,

Rich Title

Here is my take on it. Stockfish is strong primarily due to Tord's initial contribution and then later by Marco and Joona in no particular order. Look who is listed when you type "uci."

The recent additional success (SF has ALWAYS been successful) is due to the testing framework and harnessing the power of many machines. It has nothing to do with open source in this case although I agree with your statements in general. Open Source is really at its best for big projects, not projects like a chess programs. It is not a bad thing but I'm just saying that it's not the key in this case.

What is the key is something already said which I agree with, the testing framework. In fact Daylen Yang should be added to list of authors because all the recent improvements is due to this innovation.

Well, you mean Gary Linscott of course, don't you?

[Tord Romstad]

I am, not surprisingly, about as big a fan of free and open source software as you can find, but I have problems with these examples.

Linux vs Windows.

Can these even be regarded as competitors any more? It seems to me that they have ended up dominating separate niches.

Eclipse vs Visual Studio.

Visual Studio, as far as I can tell, seems to be held in extremely high regard by most people who use it (I have never used it myself, but have heard little but glowing praise for it from others). Eclipse seems to be almost universally hated, and I personally found it singularly unpleasant to use on the thankfully very few occasions when I've been forced to do so.

Apache vs IIS.

No comment on this one, since I barely know what Apache is, and have never heard of IIS.

Mozilla vs IE.

Wikipedia has a page on the usage share of web browsers with statistics from several sources, which *all* agree that Internet Explorer is a more widely used web browser than Firefox, despite running only on a single platform. If your point was not popularity, but the quality of software, then yes, i would also pick Firefox over IE, but I prefer the semi-proprietary Safari and Chrome over both of them.

Summing up, I don't see the open source projects "winning" in any of these cases, with the possible exception of Apache vs IIS, which, as I said, I know nothing about. There are also plenty of examples where the proprietary options are clearly winning. Photoshop vs Gimp, Microsoft Office vs OpenOffice, Mathematica vs Sage, Twitter vs Identi.ca, Facebook vs Diaspora, ChessBase vs SCID, etc. As much as it pains me to admit it, it seems to me that open source projects which are more successful than their proprietary counterparts are still very rare.

[Michel]

The recent additional success (SF has ALWAYS been successful) is due to the testing framework and harnessing the power of many machines. It has nothing to do with open source in this case

In some sense it does since it means _anyone_ can contribute, and the framework makes it possible to quickly validate such contributions. Quite a few succesful patches have been from people who came out of nowhere.

Open Source is really at its best for big projects, not projects like a chess programs.

I would argue it works well for chess program since every patch can be scientifically tested if it is really an improvement or not. Not many types of projects have this luxury.

[Don]

I am, not surprisingly, about as big a fan of free and open source software as you can find, but I have problems with these examples.

Linux vs Windows.

Can these even be regarded as competitors any more? It seems to me that they have ended up dominating separate niches.

Eclipse vs Visual Studio.

Visual Studio, as far as I can tell, seems to be held in extremely high regard by most people who use it (I have never used it myself, but have heard little but glowing praise for it from others). Eclipse seems to be almost universally hated, and I personally found it singularly unpleasant to use on the thankfully very few occasions when I've been forced to do so.

Apache vs IIS.

No comment on this one, since I barely know what Apache is, and have never heard of IIS.

Mozilla vs IE.

Wikipedia has a page on the usage share of web browsers with statistics from several sources, which *all* agree that Internet Explorer is a more widely used web browser than Firefox, despite running only on a single platform. If your point was not popularity, but the quality of software, then yes, i would also pick Firefox over IE, but I prefer the semi-proprietary Safari and Chrome over both of them.

Summing up, I don't see the open source projects "winning" in any of these cases, with the possible exception of Apache vs IIS, which, as I said, I know nothing about. There are also plenty of examples where the proprietary options are clearly winning. Photoshop vs Gimp, Microsoft Office vs OpenOffice, Mathematica vs Sage, Twitter vs Identi.ca, Facebook vs Diaspora, ChessBase vs SCID, etc. As much as it pains me to admit it, it seems to me that open source projects which are more successful than their proprietary counterparts are still very rare.

As far as I know there is just nothing that compares to autocad - which is a glaring hole in the Linux landscape. In most case you do just about anything in Linux you can do in windows with a program that is at least about as good - and sometimes better. But there is nothing that compares to autocad even though there are open source projects out there in the same space.

[bob]

I am, not surprisingly, about as big a fan of free and open source software as you can find, but I have problems with these examples.

Linux vs Windows.

Can these even be regarded as competitors any more? It seems to me that they have ended up dominating separate niches.

Eclipse vs Visual Studio.

Visual Studio, as far as I can tell, seems to be held in extremely high regard by most people who use it (I have never used it myself, but have heard little but glowing praise for it from others). Eclipse seems to be almost universally hated, and I personally found it singularly unpleasant to use on the thankfully very few occasions when I've been forced to do so.

Apache vs IIS.

No comment on this one, since I barely know what Apache is, and have never heard of IIS.

Mozilla vs IE.

Wikipedia has a page on the usage share of web browsers with statistics from several sources, which *all* agree that Internet Explorer is a more widely used web browser than Firefox, despite running only on a single platform. If your point was not popularity, but the quality of software, then yes, i would also pick Firefox over IE, but I prefer the semi-proprietary Safari and Chrome over both of them.

Summing up, I don't see the open source projects "winning" in any of these cases, with the possible exception of Apache vs IIS, which, as I said, I know nothing about. There are also plenty of examples where the proprietary options are clearly winning. Photoshop vs Gimp, Microsoft Office vs OpenOffice, Mathematica vs Sage, Twitter vs Identi.ca, Facebook vs Diaspora, ChessBase vs SCID, etc. As much as it pains me to admit it, it seems to me that open source projects which are more successful than their proprietary counterparts are still very rare.

As far as I know there is just nothing that compares to autocad - which is a glaring hole in the Linux landscape. In most case you do just about anything in Linux you can do in windows with a program that is at least about as good - and sometimes better. But there is nothing that compares to autocad even though there are open source projects out there in the same space.

Ever heard of wine?

[Don]

I am, not surprisingly, about as big a fan of free and open source software as you can find, but I have problems with these examples.

Linux vs Windows.

Can these even be regarded as competitors any more? It seems to me that they have ended up dominating separate niches.

Eclipse vs Visual Studio.

Visual Studio, as far as I can tell, seems to be held in extremely high regard by most people who use it (I have never used it myself, but have heard little but glowing praise for it from others). Eclipse seems to be almost universally hated, and I personally found it singularly unpleasant to use on the thankfully very few occasions when I've been forced to do so.

Apache vs IIS.

No comment on this one, since I barely know what Apache is, and have never heard of IIS.

Mozilla vs IE.

Wikipedia has a page on the usage share of web browsers with statistics from several sources, which *all* agree that Internet Explorer is a more widely used web browser than Firefox, despite running only on a single platform. If your point was not popularity, but the quality of software, then yes, i would also pick Firefox over IE, but I prefer the semi-proprietary Safari and Chrome over both of them.

Summing up, I don't see the open source projects "winning" in any of these cases, with the possible exception of Apache vs IIS, which, as I said, I know nothing about. There are also plenty of examples where the proprietary options are clearly winning. Photoshop vs Gimp, Microsoft Office vs OpenOffice, Mathematica vs Sage, Twitter vs Identi.ca, Facebook vs Diaspora, ChessBase vs SCID, etc. As much as it pains me to admit it, it seems to me that open source projects which are more successful than their proprietary counterparts are still very rare.

As far as I know there is just nothing that compares to autocad - which is a glaring hole in the Linux landscape. In most case you do just about anything in Linux you can do in windows with a program that is at least about as good - and sometimes better. But there is nothing that compares to autocad even though there are open source projects out there in the same space.

Ever heard of wine?

Yes, we keep many bottles around the house.

Seriously though, I have seen in the forums big problems running autocad in windows - maybe that has changed because I have not looked in a long time. Still, I really prefer native Linux apps if at all possible.

Here is a typical message - although this is admittedly a year old:

I am trying 3 years now installing Autocad,*3ds Max* and Revit architecture on Ubuntu with wine!

Every year I am very optimistic 'cause I see the new wine versions already improved.

So, now I am starting again in a clean Ubuntu installation to install Autocad 2013 with wine 1.4. I am not trying to have an answer only for me, but I want this community to try and finally we can achieve that!

[gladius]

Here is my take on it. Stockfish is strong primarily due to Tord's initial contribution and then later by Marco and Joona in no particular order. Look who is listed when you type "uci."

Yes, there is no doubt the awesome Glaurung from Tord, then the huge work by Marco and Joona brought SF to where it is today. But, if Glaurung wasn't open source, that would have been the end of the line. And again, when Marco and Joona decided to upload it to github as they didn't have as much time as in the past, it would have died if the project wasn't open.

The recent additional success (SF has ALWAYS been successful) is due to the testing framework and harnessing the power of many machines. It has nothing to do with open source in this case although I agree with your statements in general. Open Source is really at its best for big projects, not projects like a chess programs. It is not a bad thing but I'm just saying that it's not the key in this case.

The distributed testing framework would not exist if SF was not open source. I was testing my SF patches locally and got annoyed with manually herding cutechess around. So, it was originally just an automation tool, and grew from there.

There are now 23 developers who have submitted tests on fishtest. A lot of great ideas in there! Without the code being open, none of this would be possible IMO.

[bob]

I am, not surprisingly, about as big a fan of free and open source software as you can find, but I have problems with these examples.

Linux vs Windows.

Can these even be regarded as competitors any more? It seems to me that they have ended up dominating separate niches.

Eclipse vs Visual Studio.

Visual Studio, as far as I can tell, seems to be held in extremely high regard by most people who use it (I have never used it myself, but have heard little but glowing praise for it from others). Eclipse seems to be almost universally hated, and I personally found it singularly unpleasant to use on the thankfully very few occasions when I've been forced to do so.

Apache vs IIS.

No comment on this one, since I barely know what Apache is, and have never heard of IIS.

Mozilla vs IE.

Wikipedia has a page on the usage share of web browsers with statistics from several sources, which *all* agree that Internet Explorer is a more widely used web browser than Firefox, despite running only on a single platform. If your point was not popularity, but the quality of software, then yes, i would also pick Firefox over IE, but I prefer the semi-proprietary Safari and Chrome over both of them.

Summing up, I don't see the open source projects "winning" in any of these cases, with the possible exception of Apache vs IIS, which, as I said, I know nothing about. There are also plenty of examples where the proprietary options are clearly winning. Photoshop vs Gimp, Microsoft Office vs OpenOffice, Mathematica vs Sage, Twitter vs Identi.ca, Facebook vs Diaspora, ChessBase vs SCID, etc. As much as it pains me to admit it, it seems to me that open source projects which are more successful than their proprietary counterparts are still very rare.

As far as I know there is just nothing that compares to autocad - which is a glaring hole in the Linux landscape. In most case you do just about anything in Linux you can do in windows with a program that is at least about as good - and sometimes better. But there is nothing that compares to autocad even though there are open source projects out there in the same space.

Ever heard of wine?

Yes, we keep many bottles around the house.

Seriously though, I have seen in the forums big problems running autocad in windows - maybe that has changed because I have not looked in a long time. Still, I really prefer native Linux apps if at all possible.

Here is a typical message - although this is admittedly a year old:

I am trying 3 years now installing Autocad,*3ds Max* and Revit architecture on Ubuntu with wine!

Every year I am very optimistic 'cause I see the new wine versions already improved.

So, now I am starting again in a clean Ubuntu installation to install Autocad 2013 with wine 1.4. I am not trying to have an answer only for me, but I want this community to try and finally we can achieve that!

There is a LOT of urban legend about Wine. But for a really difficult test, I updated my dell laptop directly from a windows .exe file. But I only had Wine. Turns out there is even a kernel module to let linux access/update the bios and the windows exe ran perfectly. I tried this several years ago and it resulted in a service call where the bios EEPROM had to be replaced by the tech because wine screwed up the updating...

I discovered, a couple of years ago, that wine was really doing well. I even macports'ed a version for my macbook. I used it to run the rybka executables during the ICGA investigation, and was surprised that it worked flawlessly and painlessly, no real setup required. "wine rybka-1.0beta.exe" will fire it right up...