I get your point Lyudmil but the last diagram it is not equal position. Black is doomed. White is winning like +1.3 for me.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Carl will hate me that I am indulging too much in his thread, but I will explain him in the evening.
[d]rnbqnrk1/pp3ppp/4p3/3pP3/2pP4/2P5/PP3PPP/RNBQNRK1 w - - 0 1
That is meant to address the disbelievers.
All pawns and pieces on the board, just the kings castled kingside, so that the pointed chain bonus makes sense.
Everything else being equal, or almost equal, one would suppose this position to be drawn, or very close to drawn.
However, white has substantial advantage above, maybe even winning. (well, 30cps are not to sneeze at)
Yoy might check this with your engines, but if they do not understand how to play this, they might well not give convincing scores in white's favour, as they will be considering non-optimal moves.
So that the single presence of the c3,d4,e5 white triade gives white significant advantage.
[d]rnbqnrk1/ppp1b1pp/5p2/4pP2/3pP3/3P4/PPP1B1PP/RNBQNRK1 w - - 0 1
d3,e4,f5 white triade
Everything else being equal, one might suppose the game is very close to a draw.
However, white has substantial advantage above, probably close to winning.
So that a single eval term changes the score drastically, and this single term is the white d3,e4,f5 triade, unmatched by black.
Check the position with your engines, but, if they do not know how to play it...
[d]r2q1rk1/4nppp/p3b3/1p1nP3/2pP4/2P2N2/1B1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 1
Another similar position, with random piece placements and supposedly more or less even in score.
Even though most of the pawns of the c3,d4,e5 triade this time are not blocked by enemy pawns, the triade still exerts noticeable pressure and should give white some advantage.
It might be claimed that when all pawns of the triade are blocked, the bonus should be bigger, but definitely both cases deserve a bonus, and it might be a bit costly computationally to make such a distinction.
[d]r2q1rk1/3nbppp/1p1p4/p1p1pP2/3nP3/1P1P2P1/P1PN1NBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 1
Supposedly equal position again.
This time again just a single pawn of the white d3,e4,f5 triade, e4, is blocked by an enemy pawn, but the triade still exerts noticeable influence.
White has clear advantage above, not matter what your engines might think, and the advantage is due mainly to the white d3,e4,f5 triade.
So that, I would simply give the bonus for any of the 4 basic triades (you might try them separately), irrespective of whether the pawns are blocked or not, and where the kings are.
pointy chains redux (part 1)
Moderator: Ras
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Re: Triades
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- Posts: 6052
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Re: Triades
One more thing I am thinking of: as the bonus for more advanced d4,e5,f6 and e4,f5,g6 triades might severely clash with storming pawns bonus, maybe just giving the bonus to c3,d4,e5 and d3,e4,f5 triades might make big sense.
Besides, when you have one of those, it could easily extent to the 2 other, more advanced triades, while the opposite would not be true.
So really, first thing I would do is to just assign the bonus for the 2 most basic and relevant triades:
- c3,d4,e5
- d3,e4,f5
and then probably tune depending on the results.
But those 2 are the most essential to do.
Besides, when you have one of those, it could easily extent to the 2 other, more advanced triades, while the opposite would not be true.
So really, first thing I would do is to just assign the bonus for the 2 most basic and relevant triades:
- c3,d4,e5
- d3,e4,f5
and then probably tune depending on the results.
But those 2 are the most essential to do.
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Re: Triades
In most diagrams white is better or winning precisely due to the c3,d4,e5 and d3,e4,f5 triades.Dicaste wrote:I get your point Lyudmil but the last diagram it is not equal position. Black is doomed. White is winning like +1.3 for me.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Carl will hate me that I am indulging too much in his thread, but I will explain him in the evening.
[d]rnbqnrk1/pp3ppp/4p3/3pP3/2pP4/2P5/PP3PPP/RNBQNRK1 w - - 0 1
That is meant to address the disbelievers.
All pawns and pieces on the board, just the kings castled kingside, so that the pointed chain bonus makes sense.
Everything else being equal, or almost equal, one would suppose this position to be drawn, or very close to drawn.
However, white has substantial advantage above, maybe even winning. (well, 30cps are not to sneeze at)
Yoy might check this with your engines, but if they do not understand how to play this, they might well not give convincing scores in white's favour, as they will be considering non-optimal moves.
So that the single presence of the c3,d4,e5 white triade gives white significant advantage.
[d]rnbqnrk1/ppp1b1pp/5p2/4pP2/3pP3/3P4/PPP1B1PP/RNBQNRK1 w - - 0 1
d3,e4,f5 white triade
Everything else being equal, one might suppose the game is very close to a draw.
However, white has substantial advantage above, probably close to winning.
So that a single eval term changes the score drastically, and this single term is the white d3,e4,f5 triade, unmatched by black.
Check the position with your engines, but, if they do not know how to play it...
[d]r2q1rk1/4nppp/p3b3/1p1nP3/2pP4/2P2N2/1B1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 1
Another similar position, with random piece placements and supposedly more or less even in score.
Even though most of the pawns of the c3,d4,e5 triade this time are not blocked by enemy pawns, the triade still exerts noticeable pressure and should give white some advantage.
It might be claimed that when all pawns of the triade are blocked, the bonus should be bigger, but definitely both cases deserve a bonus, and it might be a bit costly computationally to make such a distinction.
[d]r2q1rk1/3nbppp/1p1p4/p1p1pP2/3nP3/1P1P2P1/P1PN1NBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 1
Supposedly equal position again.
This time again just a single pawn of the white d3,e4,f5 triade, e4, is blocked by an enemy pawn, but the triade still exerts noticeable influence.
White has clear advantage above, not matter what your engines might think, and the advantage is due mainly to the white d3,e4,f5 triade.
So that, I would simply give the bonus for any of the 4 basic triades (you might try them separately), irrespective of whether the pawns are blocked or not, and where the kings are.
Other factors should be more or less equal.
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Re: extending the chain (part 2)
I think you probably know more engines than I do, Lyudmil, but we'll help each other out with insider tips every now and thenLyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Completely agree with the diagrams and conclusions from the first Andscacs game, where the pointed chain (I am a stickler toocarldaman wrote:carldaman wrote:I'd like to go over the pointy chains issue again, this time attempting to break it down into finer details, which will hopefully assist others in their understanding, and (why not?) perhaps clear the path for improved coding implementations down the line.
This is not aimed at any particular engine or programmer, but an open-ended discussion that others should chime into with further on-topic comments or observations.
<snip>
In part 2, later on, I'd like to go over pointy chains directed at the Queenside, and further elaborate on congestion points.
(End of part 1 here)
Regards,
CL
Alright, now I would like to take a look at the world of pawn chains facing towards the Queenside (more precisely - towards the side of the board where the opposing King is not located).
I'll actually show a couple of notable examples from recent engine games.
[d]r1b2rk1/ppq1bpp1/2n1pn1p/3pN3/2pP1P2/2PBPQ2/PP1N2PP/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 11
In the above diagram, Fizbo 1.31, playing black, has just extended its chain (with tempo, no less) by playing c5-c4. This sort of move is probably as old as computer chess, and is typically seen in Stonewall and French formations. [I remember witnessing old forum discussions from long ago that touched on the need of keeping the engines from making such moves.] Not much has changed in this regard over the years.
Most engines, even very strong ones will routinely play like this when it comes to extending a pawn chain on the Queenside, but will balk at (correctly) doing the same thing on the Kingside! Obviously, something is really wrong, but the solution to this problem is by no means obvious.
Before a solution can be tackled in earnest, a better understanding of the elements of such positions can be very useful. So what do we have here?
Black has just extended his chain, but once the Bishop retreats to c2, it has not achieved anything except maybe gaining some space, away from the opposing King, however. What about the White pawn chain (b2-c3-d4)? It does not look all that impressive, but it can still be extended forward if e3-e4-e5 can be played. Even without the White e-pawn advance, the Black chain (f7-e6-d5-c4) is acting as a barrier that restricts most of his pieces to the Queenside, while White has more freedom to act and better chances on the Kingside, which should count for more.
So, a penalty for extending the pawn chain in the wrong direction is owed to Black, even though there is no White "pointy" chain spearheaded on Black's side of the board! I purposely picked a Stonewall position because it illustrates this very fact. I would suggest a 20 cps penalty to Black for playing c5-c4, which could be increased to 30 cps if White succeeds in getting a pawn to e5, AND thereby extending his chain, aimed at the Kingside.
Now, let's take a look at the next position, arrived at just a few moves later:
[d]r1b2rk1/p3bpp1/2q1pn1p/3pP3/1ppP1P2/2P2Q2/PPBN2PP/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 14
Lo and behold, White (represented by the wonderfully improved engine Andscacs 0.72) has gotten his e-pawn to e5, extending his chain in the right direction. We reward him with an additional bonus, bringing it to at least 30 cps. [Earlier we'd already given a penalty to Black for c5-c4 of about 20 cps, which translated into an equal bonus to White. Now we increase this bonus based on the e-pawn advancing to e5.] Andscacs went on to win a nice game from this position.
Next, I'd like to discuss congestion points from the perspective of a pawn chain pointed at the Queenside. We'll again use a game played by Andscacs, this time with Black.
[d]r1b2rk1/1pq1b1pp/2n1p3/p1ppPp2/P4P2/2PBP2P/1PQN2P1/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 13
In the above diagram, a piece exchange has taken place on e5, and Black still has the option to extend his chain by playing c5-c4 (and again, with tempo). Would such a move incur a similar penalty as before? If not, why not?
Some significant differences are present. There is no longer a congestion point on d4, where it would normally be after c5-c4, since White has already recaptured dxe5. Moreover, White will need help from Black if he is ever going to build a meaningful (of 3 pawns or more) chain directed at Kingside, by being able to somehow make an exd4 capture. This is not likely to happen here; instead, the a7-g1 diagonal will be used by Black to create counterplay.
Under the circumstances, I propose that no penalty be given to c5-c4, for the reasons specified, in particular because of the lack of a congestion point on d4.
[d]r1b2rk1/1p4pp/1qn1p3/p1bpPp2/P1pN1P2/2P1P2P/1PQ1B1P1/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 16
Now, let's take a look at the position a few moves later. Black (Andscacs) has indeed developed counterplay on the a7-g1 diagonal and despite the Knight on d4, White will see his central pawn structure totally shattered after Black's g7-g5!
Andscacs again won convincingly over Fizbo (time control was 25 min + 15 sec inc on an i3.)
To conclude this second part, I'll reiterate the importance of congestion points to directional pawn chains. If a congestion point is not present, both the positive and negative effects of pointy (or pointed) pawn chains are reduced or outright eliminated. In the case of Kingside-aiming chains, I will partially agree with Lyudmil and still award half the normal bonus (half of 30-40 cps), because of the practical attacking chances offered by the pointy chain even under less optimal circumstances.
I've changed the title of the thread a little bit [basically reverting to the original title I had in mind], to reflect the action of extending the pawn chain as these chains don't appear out of thin air, and a real choice has to be made whether to extend a chain or not, and since I'm a believer in concepts more so than the names we actually come up with to describe them, which are highly subjective anyhow. Pointy or pointed, who cares?![]()
(end of part 2, more to follow when I have time)
Regards,
CL) plays big role and wins the game for white.
However, I fully disagree with what you conclude from the second game.
[d]r1b2rk1/1p4pp/1qn1p3/p1bpPp2/P1pN1P2/2P1P2P/1PQ1B1P1/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 16
White is still better here, much better I would say, even having winning chances.
The reason is the same: the pointed white c3-d4-e5 chain. Now, there is a knight on d4, not a pawn, but that knight is defended twice by pawns and not attackable by enemy pawns, e6 is blocked, so the knight kind of acts like a linking point between c3 and e5 pawns. The best black can do to neutralise the powerful white d4 knight blocking the position and preventing black counterplay, is to capture that knight, when the c3,d4,e5 chain will be recreated.
So when you have such a blocking knight, unattackable by enemy pawns, and linking 2 pawns that would otherwise as a triade constitute a pointed chain, I would still give the pointed chain bonus.
On g5, supposed black's best move, white simply replies g3, followed by Kh2, retaining a fair share of advantage.
Eagerly waiting for your next contributions, Carl.
There is no doubt you are the best engine knower of our times.

After Black's g5, White's best plan is g3/Kh2 as you indicated, but Black does not have to trade on d4 at all - instead, playing Kh8/Rg8 and then double on the g-file, followed by gxf4 leaves Black with a solid position with no weaknesses, and a slight but lasting initiative. White will still have e3 and a4 to defend, and if both pairs of Rooks get traded on the g-file, a trade on d4 won't hurt Black. However, White should probably hold with best play.
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Re: Triades
This is a great contribution, Lyudmil -- the triads are a great way of simplifying the concept. Maybe a simple implementation will even pass based on just these basic triads, and I wouldn't argue with success!
Of course, I still have my reservations about the opposing King's position and any lack of congestion points, so I'll continue to elaborate on those in the next installments.

Of course, I still have my reservations about the opposing King's position and any lack of congestion points, so I'll continue to elaborate on those in the next installments.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Carl will hate me that I am indulging too much in his thread, but I will explain him in the evening.
[d]rnbqnrk1/pp3ppp/4p3/3pP3/2pP4/2P5/PP3PPP/RNBQNRK1 w - - 0 1
That is meant to address the disbelievers.
All pawns and pieces on the board, just the kings castled kingside, so that the pointed chain bonus makes sense.
Everything else being equal, or almost equal, one would suppose this position to be drawn, or very close to drawn.
However, white has substantial advantage above, maybe even winning. (well, 30cps are not to sneeze at)
Yoy might check this with your engines, but if they do not understand how to play this, they might well not give convincing scores in white's favour, as they will be considering non-optimal moves.
So that the single presence of the c3,d4,e5 white triade gives white significant advantage.
[d]rnbqnrk1/ppp1b1pp/5p2/4pP2/3pP3/3P4/PPP1B1PP/RNBQNRK1 w - - 0 1
d3,e4,f5 white triade
Everything else being equal, one might suppose the game is very close to a draw.
However, white has substantial advantage above, probably close to winning.
So that a single eval term changes the score drastically, and this single term is the white d3,e4,f5 triade, unmatched by black.
Check the position with your engines, but, if they do not know how to play it...
[d]r2q1rk1/4nppp/p3b3/1p1nP3/2pP4/2P2N2/1B1N1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 1
Another similar position, with random piece placements and supposedly more or less even in score.
Even though most of the pawns of the c3,d4,e5 triade this time are not blocked by enemy pawns, the triade still exerts noticeable pressure and should give white some advantage.
It might be claimed that when all pawns of the triade are blocked, the bonus should be bigger, but definitely both cases deserve a bonus, and it might be a bit costly computationally to make such a distinction.
[d]r2q1rk1/3nbppp/1p1p4/p1p1pP2/3nP3/1P1P2P1/P1PN1NBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 1
Supposedly equal position again.
This time again just a single pawn of the white d3,e4,f5 triade, e4, is blocked by an enemy pawn, but the triade still exerts noticeable influence.
White has clear advantage above, not matter what your engines might think, and the advantage is due mainly to the white d3,e4,f5 triade.
So that, I would simply give the bonus for any of the 4 basic triades (you might try them separately), irrespective of whether the pawns are blocked or not, and where the kings are.
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Re: Triades
No, it will not pass, as engine search is wrong for these kinds of positions.carldaman wrote:This is a great contribution, Lyudmil -- the triads are a great way of simplifying the concept. Maybe a simple implementation will even pass based on just these basic triads, and I wouldn't argue with success!![]()
Of course, I still have my reservations about the opposing King's position and any lack of congestion points, so I'll continue to elaborate on those in the next installments.
Anyway, would be very interested if any author reports he has achieved even 0.0001 elo increase with some kind of pointed chain implementation.
Looking forward to anything you post, Carl.
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Re: extending the chain (part 2)
That was long long time ago when I used to play every conceivable engine any author on this planet had created.carldaman wrote:I think you probably know more engines than I do, Lyudmil, but we'll help each other out with insider tips every now and then
After Black's g5, White's best plan is g3/Kh2 as you indicated, but Black does not have to trade on d4 at all - instead, playing Kh8/Rg8 and then double on the g-file, followed by gxf4 leaves Black with a solid position with no weaknesses, and a slight but lasting initiative. White will still have e3 and a4 to defend, and if both pairs of Rooks get traded on the g-file, a trade on d4 won't hurt Black. However, White should probably hold with best play.
Now I mostly concentrate on the top and some interesting ones, though weaker.
So you are much more competent here.
However, concerning the position from the Andscacs game, I think the initiative is with white, as black needs time to develop and double along g, just as white, but white constantly attacks e6 with the knight, so this ties the black bishop with its defence, and at some point black will probably have to capture on d4, leaving white with a pointed chain.
a4 is not such a weakness in white's camp, as there is simply no way to attack it, on the other hand, it makes b7 backward.
Probably a draw with best play, but the initiative lies with white. I have played so many games along these lines...
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- Location: Warsza
Re: Triades
I don't have enough games yet, but so far triads seem to break even (with a bonus of 24 centipawns). My implementation takes king position into account. It seems that sometimes they can help without being a chain:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rodent 1.7 beta"]
[Black "Rodent 1.7 chain"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1bn1rk1/ppp1qppp/3pp3/3P4/2P1n3/2B2NP1/PP2PPBP/2RQK2R w K - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]
1. Bd4 e5 2. Be3 f5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. h3 b6 5. Nf3 Nf7 6. O-O Bd7 7. b3 a5 8.
Re1 Rae8 9. Qc2 Ne4 10. Nd2 Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Qf6 12. a3 Ng5 13. Rcd1 f4 14. g4
Qh6 15. Qc3 e4 16. Bc1 e3 17. Bb2 f3 18. exf3 Nxf3+ 19. Bxf3 Rxf3 20. Rxe3
Rexe3 21. fxe3 Rxh3 22. Qxg7+ Qxg7 23. Bxg7 Kxg7 24. Kf2 Bxg4 25. Rd4 Bf5
26. Rf4 Bg6 27. Rf3 Rh2+ 28. Kg3 Ra2 29. e4 Rxa3 30. Kf4 Bh5 31. Rg3+ Kh6
32. Re3 a4 33. bxa4 Rxa4 34. Rc3 Be2 35. Rg3 Rxc4 36. Kf5 b5 37. Re3 Bh5
38. e5 Bg4+ 39. Kf6 Rf4+ 40. Ke7 dxe5 41. Rxe5 Kg6 42. Kd8 Rf7 43. Re4 Bf5
44. Re6+ Bxe6 45. dxe6 Rg7 46. e7 Rxe7 47. Kxe7 b4 48. Ke6 b3 49. Kd5 h5
50. Kd4 0-1
[/pgn]
and here a game where going for a triad fails:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rodent 1.7 beta"]
[Black "Rodent 1.7 chain"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r2q1rk1/p1p2ppp/2p1pb2/3n1b2/3P4/P4N1P/1PP2PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]
1. Nbd2 c5 2. dxc5 Nf4 3. Nc4 Qd5 4. Ne3 Qxc5 5. Nxf5 Qxf5 6. Bxf4 Qxf4 7.
c3 Rab8 8. Qe2 Rfd8 9. Rad1 Rd6 10. b4 Rc6 11. Rd3 Rxc3 12. Rxc3 Bxc3 13.
Rd1 Rf8 14. Qa6 e5 15. Qxa7 e4 16. Nh2 Be5 17. Ng4 Bd6 18. Qe3 Qf5 19. Qc1
Kh8 20. Qc3 f6 21. Ne3 Qf4 22. Kf1 Qh2 23. Rd5 Bf4 24. Qd4 Qh1+ 25. Ke2 Bd6
26. Qxe4 Qa1 27. Nc2 Qa2 28. Rd1 f5 29. Qd3 f4 30. f3 Re8+ 31. Kf1 Re5 32.
Re1 Rxe1+ 33. Kxe1 Qb1+ 34. Qd1 Qb3 35. Kf1 g6 36. Kg1 Kg7 37. Qd4+ Kh6 38.
Qe4 Qb2 39. a4 Qc3 40. Kh2 Qd2 41. a5 Qf2 42. a6 Qa7 43. Qb7 Qxb7 44. axb7
c6 45. Nd4 Kg5 46. Nxc6 Kf5 47. b5 Ke6 48. b8=Q Bxb8 49. Nxb8 Ke7 50. b6
Kd6 51. h4 h6 52. Kh3 g5 53. hxg5 hxg5 54. Kg4 Kc5 55. Nd7+ Kc6 56. Kxg5
Kxd7 57. Kxf4 Kc6 58. g4 Kxb6 59. g5 Kc5 1-0
[/pgn]
Having said that, I will be trying to incorporate enemy pawns and good bishop position behind the triad (even Gufeld said that in KID he needs light squared bishop as much as his beloved dark squared one)
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rodent 1.7 beta"]
[Black "Rodent 1.7 chain"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1bn1rk1/ppp1qppp/3pp3/3P4/2P1n3/2B2NP1/PP2PPBP/2RQK2R w K - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]
1. Bd4 e5 2. Be3 f5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. h3 b6 5. Nf3 Nf7 6. O-O Bd7 7. b3 a5 8.
Re1 Rae8 9. Qc2 Ne4 10. Nd2 Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Qf6 12. a3 Ng5 13. Rcd1 f4 14. g4
Qh6 15. Qc3 e4 16. Bc1 e3 17. Bb2 f3 18. exf3 Nxf3+ 19. Bxf3 Rxf3 20. Rxe3
Rexe3 21. fxe3 Rxh3 22. Qxg7+ Qxg7 23. Bxg7 Kxg7 24. Kf2 Bxg4 25. Rd4 Bf5
26. Rf4 Bg6 27. Rf3 Rh2+ 28. Kg3 Ra2 29. e4 Rxa3 30. Kf4 Bh5 31. Rg3+ Kh6
32. Re3 a4 33. bxa4 Rxa4 34. Rc3 Be2 35. Rg3 Rxc4 36. Kf5 b5 37. Re3 Bh5
38. e5 Bg4+ 39. Kf6 Rf4+ 40. Ke7 dxe5 41. Rxe5 Kg6 42. Kd8 Rf7 43. Re4 Bf5
44. Re6+ Bxe6 45. dxe6 Rg7 46. e7 Rxe7 47. Kxe7 b4 48. Ke6 b3 49. Kd5 h5
50. Kd4 0-1
[/pgn]
and here a game where going for a triad fails:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rodent 1.7 beta"]
[Black "Rodent 1.7 chain"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r2q1rk1/p1p2ppp/2p1pb2/3n1b2/3P4/P4N1P/1PP2PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]
1. Nbd2 c5 2. dxc5 Nf4 3. Nc4 Qd5 4. Ne3 Qxc5 5. Nxf5 Qxf5 6. Bxf4 Qxf4 7.
c3 Rab8 8. Qe2 Rfd8 9. Rad1 Rd6 10. b4 Rc6 11. Rd3 Rxc3 12. Rxc3 Bxc3 13.
Rd1 Rf8 14. Qa6 e5 15. Qxa7 e4 16. Nh2 Be5 17. Ng4 Bd6 18. Qe3 Qf5 19. Qc1
Kh8 20. Qc3 f6 21. Ne3 Qf4 22. Kf1 Qh2 23. Rd5 Bf4 24. Qd4 Qh1+ 25. Ke2 Bd6
26. Qxe4 Qa1 27. Nc2 Qa2 28. Rd1 f5 29. Qd3 f4 30. f3 Re8+ 31. Kf1 Re5 32.
Re1 Rxe1+ 33. Kxe1 Qb1+ 34. Qd1 Qb3 35. Kf1 g6 36. Kg1 Kg7 37. Qd4+ Kh6 38.
Qe4 Qb2 39. a4 Qc3 40. Kh2 Qd2 41. a5 Qf2 42. a6 Qa7 43. Qb7 Qxb7 44. axb7
c6 45. Nd4 Kg5 46. Nxc6 Kf5 47. b5 Ke6 48. b8=Q Bxb8 49. Nxb8 Ke7 50. b6
Kd6 51. h4 h6 52. Kh3 g5 53. hxg5 hxg5 54. Kg4 Kc5 55. Nd7+ Kc6 56. Kxg5
Kxd7 57. Kxf4 Kc6 58. g4 Kxb6 59. g5 Kc5 1-0
[/pgn]
Having said that, I will be trying to incorporate enemy pawns and good bishop position behind the triad (even Gufeld said that in KID he needs light squared bishop as much as his beloved dark squared one)
Pawel Koziol
http://www.pkoziol.cal24.pl/rodent/rodent.htm
http://www.pkoziol.cal24.pl/rodent/rodent.htm
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- Posts: 6052
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm
Re: Triades
Many thanks, Pawel, for sharing this info!PK wrote:I don't have enough games yet, but so far triads seem to break even (with a bonus of 24 centipawns). My implementation takes king position into account. It seems that sometimes they can help without being a chain:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rodent 1.7 beta"]
[Black "Rodent 1.7 chain"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1bn1rk1/ppp1qppp/3pp3/3P4/2P1n3/2B2NP1/PP2PPBP/2RQK2R w K - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]
1. Bd4 e5 2. Be3 f5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. h3 b6 5. Nf3 Nf7 6. O-O Bd7 7. b3 a5 8.
Re1 Rae8 9. Qc2 Ne4 10. Nd2 Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Qf6 12. a3 Ng5 13. Rcd1 f4 14. g4
Qh6 15. Qc3 e4 16. Bc1 e3 17. Bb2 f3 18. exf3 Nxf3+ 19. Bxf3 Rxf3 20. Rxe3
Rexe3 21. fxe3 Rxh3 22. Qxg7+ Qxg7 23. Bxg7 Kxg7 24. Kf2 Bxg4 25. Rd4 Bf5
26. Rf4 Bg6 27. Rf3 Rh2+ 28. Kg3 Ra2 29. e4 Rxa3 30. Kf4 Bh5 31. Rg3+ Kh6
32. Re3 a4 33. bxa4 Rxa4 34. Rc3 Be2 35. Rg3 Rxc4 36. Kf5 b5 37. Re3 Bh5
38. e5 Bg4+ 39. Kf6 Rf4+ 40. Ke7 dxe5 41. Rxe5 Kg6 42. Kd8 Rf7 43. Re4 Bf5
44. Re6+ Bxe6 45. dxe6 Rg7 46. e7 Rxe7 47. Kxe7 b4 48. Ke6 b3 49. Kd5 h5
50. Kd4 0-1
[/pgn]
and here a game where going for a triad fails:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rodent 1.7 beta"]
[Black "Rodent 1.7 chain"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r2q1rk1/p1p2ppp/2p1pb2/3n1b2/3P4/P4N1P/1PP2PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "118"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]
1. Nbd2 c5 2. dxc5 Nf4 3. Nc4 Qd5 4. Ne3 Qxc5 5. Nxf5 Qxf5 6. Bxf4 Qxf4 7.
c3 Rab8 8. Qe2 Rfd8 9. Rad1 Rd6 10. b4 Rc6 11. Rd3 Rxc3 12. Rxc3 Bxc3 13.
Rd1 Rf8 14. Qa6 e5 15. Qxa7 e4 16. Nh2 Be5 17. Ng4 Bd6 18. Qe3 Qf5 19. Qc1
Kh8 20. Qc3 f6 21. Ne3 Qf4 22. Kf1 Qh2 23. Rd5 Bf4 24. Qd4 Qh1+ 25. Ke2 Bd6
26. Qxe4 Qa1 27. Nc2 Qa2 28. Rd1 f5 29. Qd3 f4 30. f3 Re8+ 31. Kf1 Re5 32.
Re1 Rxe1+ 33. Kxe1 Qb1+ 34. Qd1 Qb3 35. Kf1 g6 36. Kg1 Kg7 37. Qd4+ Kh6 38.
Qe4 Qb2 39. a4 Qc3 40. Kh2 Qd2 41. a5 Qf2 42. a6 Qa7 43. Qb7 Qxb7 44. axb7
c6 45. Nd4 Kg5 46. Nxc6 Kf5 47. b5 Ke6 48. b8=Q Bxb8 49. Nxb8 Ke7 50. b6
Kd6 51. h4 h6 52. Kh3 g5 53. hxg5 hxg5 54. Kg4 Kc5 55. Nd7+ Kc6 56. Kxg5
Kxd7 57. Kxf4 Kc6 58. g4 Kxb6 59. g5 Kc5 1-0
[/pgn]
Having said that, I will be trying to incorporate enemy pawns and good bishop position behind the triad (even Gufeld said that in KID he needs light squared bishop as much as his beloved dark squared one)
I am glad someone tries to implement the concept.
Where is the download site for Rodent_chain?

Great first game on the part of Rodent_chain. I liked it.
However, I did not see anywhere a triade in the second game, possibly you posted another game instead.
I am curious why you do not adjudicate games much earlier, to save you some precious testing time?
An engine the level of latest Rodent certainly can win with a bishop more...
I think the last 20 moves in both games were completely unnecessary.
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- Posts: 908
- Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:23 am
- Location: Warsza
Re: Triades
I think that in the second game Rodent_chain tried to form a chain when it had no time to do so. As for downloading, I think I have to fix a couple of things before release, so it will probably take some time.
Pawel Koziol
http://www.pkoziol.cal24.pl/rodent/rodent.htm
http://www.pkoziol.cal24.pl/rodent/rodent.htm