How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

Harald
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:07 am

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Harald »

A few years ago in Germany there was a tv show "Schach der Grossmeister".
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schach_der ... %9Fmeister

Once a year two grandmaster chess players had a game in the background
and two others were commenting the game.
Helmut Pfleger (ELO 2477) and Vlastimil Hort (2725).
The dialogue typically went like this:

Pfleger: Ah, black now comes out with a bishop. What can white do now?
Hort: Knight c5 looks good to me.
Pfleger: Knight c5? That is strange. But what if we play this. (Shuffles around
pieces on the demo board and shows the end position.)
Hort: Hm, ok but I like my knight.
Pfleger: Let's go back and try this (Shuffles around other pieces, explaining
possible attacks and defences.)
Hort: You may be right, but a knight on c5 ...
Pfleger: (Now moving the knight to c5 and wondering what pieces to move.) Hm?
Oh, there is the real move. Let's see. Knight to c5. ...

:-) Harald
Uri Blass
Posts: 10420
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Uri Blass »

Fguy64 wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
...

I think that they are also better in calculating lines and calculating lines is not about how many plies you see forward but if you see clearly the final position and if you pick the right lines to calculate.

...
Uri
You are probably correct, the points you make are more relevant to chess strength. But you aren't clear on the specific point of whether a strong player can search deeper. I think it is an important part of chess strength, although I wouldn't say it is the most important, And if one can't clearly see the final position then we can't very well say that one has searched to that depth, can we?
The question is what do you mean by searching to some depth.


[D]4k3/1Q6/4n2p/8/K3N3/4q3/8/8 b - - 0 1

suppose that black played Qe4+ calculating the line Qxe4 Nc5+ Kb4 Nxe4 when black did not pay attention to the fact that Nc5+ is an illegal move because the knight is pinned.

How many moves did black calculate forward?
Albert Silver
Posts: 3026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:57 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Albert Silver »

Spacious_Mind wrote:I read somewhere a little while back about a research where someone (a Dutchman I think) followed top chess players and club players in tournaments for several years. His findings were, if I recall, that there was no difference in the depth of analysis between a top player and a regular chess player, no proof of additional intelligence, no deeper searches into positions, nothing like that. What he did find, was that the top chess players could see positions on a board better than a normal player. Both based on his research (if I recall correctly) would search the positions in a game with about the same depth. I think he stated it was something like 4 - 6 ply. Therefore a top player rated at ELO 2800 how does he do that, why do they get to be so strong if their intelligence and search analysis is no deeper than a normal club player's? Is it just natural talent or loads of practice or what?

What are your thoughts on this. Taking speed (and endgame tablebases etc) aside what do engines (programmers) still have to do to get to this level of chess with the same depth (say 6 ply max) of thought as a human ? Is it possible will it someday be possible?
Best regards

Nick

ps... I thought this might make a nice change to discussing the other topic over and over again :)
4 to 6 PLIES? Oh lord, I'm going to die of laughter. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I cannot speak for others, but when training calculation, resolving endgame studies or the like, you can be certain it doesn't stop at 4 to 6 plies.

In any case there is no universal number. It depends. That said, in a normally complex middlegame, main lines will go far beyond that. The current top Brazilian GM, Alexandre Fier, was interviewed recently and asked what he felt was the largest factor that separated an IM from a GM. He said he thought a solid IM had a similar understanding for the most part, but couldn't calculate as deep or precisely.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
Albert Silver
Posts: 3026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:57 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Albert Silver »

greg77 wrote:Hi; Some years ago I read that Capablanca was asked how many
moves he thinks ahead. Unfortunately I don't remember the exact
number, but it was surprisingly low, maybe 4 or 5.
Actually, Capablanca is famous for the best answer (IMHO) to this question ever. A journalist asked the famed WC how many moves ahead he calculated, and he replied, "Just one, but always the best!" :D

Albert
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
Fguy64
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 4:51 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Fguy64 »

Uri Blass wrote:
Fguy64 wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
...

I think that they are also better in calculating lines and calculating lines is not about how many plies you see forward but if you see clearly the final position and if you pick the right lines to calculate.

...
Uri
You are probably correct, the points you make are more relevant to chess strength. But you aren't clear on the specific point of whether a strong player can search deeper. I think it is an important part of chess strength, although I wouldn't say it is the most important, And if one can't clearly see the final position then we can't very well say that one has searched to that depth, can we?
The question is what do you mean by searching to some depth.


[D]4k3/1Q6/4n2p/8/K3N3/4q3/8/8 b - - 0 1

suppose that black played Qe4+ calculating the line Qxe4 Nc5+ Kb4 Nxe4 when black did not pay attention to the fact that Nc5+ is an illegal move because the knight is pinned.

How many moves did black calculate forward?
This is just semantics, It's not the point. Whatever your definition of search is, surely I don't need to explain why it is just one of the factors that determine chess strength, and that stronger players tend to be better at it.
User avatar
Spacious_Mind
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Alabama

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Spacious_Mind »

Ok I found it. It was actually an article written by Peter Frey, who worked together with Larry Atkin:

HOW HUMANS PLAY

What does a chess master have that you and I do not have? Many people have been interested in determining the psychological attributes of a chess champion. The strong chess player is often thought of as a formidable calculating machine with incredible memory capacity. Edgar Allen Poe denigrated the game because he thought it involved boring calculations rather than creative thought. Scientist have examined these ideas in a systematic way and have discovered some unexpected answers.

Around the turn of the century, the French psychologist, Alfred Binet, the father of the IQ test, investigated the memory capacity of many of the noted chess players of his time and was surprised to find that their memory span was essentially the same as that of less skilled chess players. Several Russian psychologists examined the IQ scores of their top ranking players in the 1920’s and found that the range of intelligence for this group mirrored the range of intelligence in the general population. Thus, the early systematic investigations indicated that highly skilled chess players are neither especially bright nor gifted with “photographic” memories.

A Dutch psychologist, Adrian deGroot, a skilled player himself, made a detailed study in the 1930’s and 1940’s of the cognitive processes involved in chess play. He traveled around Europe and across the Atlantic with most of the top players of his day. Using a battery of testing procedures, deGroot tried to discover what made the highly skilled player different from average ones. One of his tests involved complicated middle game positions which the chess players studied and then selected the best move. deGroot had his subjects report their thoughts as they worked on these problems. He carefully recorded each verbal protocol and later made a systematic analysis of each player’s thinking process. After several years of data collection, deGroot summarized his findings by presenting average values for several important measures. Top players and average players were very similar in the quantitative aspects of their chess thinking. They considered a similar number of future positions (about 35), had equivalent depths of maximum look-ahead (about 6 and 1/2 plies), looked at an equal number of moves of the first level (about 4), and made the same number of fresh starts (about 3). The top players were not considering hundreds of positions nor were they doing more or deeper analysis than the average player. The only clear difference seemed to be in their choice of what to analyze and their final move selection.

deGroot noted that all of his subjects were silent just after a new position was presented, and no matter how much he urged them to talk, this pause occurred. He surmised that some important nonverbal process was taking place when the player first began his analysis. Later research confirmed this hypothesis. A Russian experiment demonstrated by eye movement analysis that subjects made a global visual inspection of the position when it was first presented. This perceptual processing was apparently the crucial point where the strong and the average players began to diverge. Subsequent research by deGroot indicated that strong players can remember the location of almost all the pieces when they are briefly shown a complicated middle game position while average players remember far less. This advantage disappears if the pieces are randomly placed on the board. The superior memory is therefore chess specific. The most plausible interpretation of this finding is that experienced chess players develop special perceptual skills such that they “see” chess pieces in meaningful patterns. In the memory task, they remember 6 or 7 piece groupings while inexperienced players remember 6 or 7 pieces. Subsequent research in this country has confirmed this interpretation.

The current theory of chess skill is that player develop, through years of practice, a very specific set of perceptual skills in which chess pieces are perceived in meaningful patterns rather than as individual pieces, and they also learn what to do with these patterns to produce winning chess positions. Learning to play chess is like learning to read. For the child, writing consists of many unfamiliar letters mixed in confusing patterns all over the page. For an experienced reader, however, the letters are almost unnoticed. Instead, the page is perceived in terms of words and phrases, with the latter part of each sentence processed only briefly, because the reader had anticipated the general idea in advance from the context of the passage. Research indicates that a very similar process occurs in chess. The experienced player sees a familiar terrain populated by frequently encountered piece groupings. He knows what the patterns connote and what is required for skillful play. Chess skill is a perpetual skill, not a process of computation. Careful move-by-move analysis is used only as a confirmation that the opponent does not have a tactical shot which might refute the intended line of play.


I wonder if this was ever refuted.... this was written in the mid 80's.

Assuming that this might be true.... 6.1/2 plies.... I wonder when if ever an engine will become so advanced to beat a GM regularly at 6 or 7 plies.

I think David Levy made the wrong bet... it should have been that he would never be beaten by a computer that plays 6 plies :)

Best regards

Nick
Uri Blass
Posts: 10420
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Uri Blass »

Spacious_Mind wrote:Ok I found it. It was actually an article written by Peter Frey, who worked together with Larry Atkin:

HOW HUMANS PLAY

What does a chess master have that you and I do not have? Many people have been interested in determining the psychological attributes of a chess champion. The strong chess player is often thought of as a formidable calculating machine with incredible memory capacity. Edgar Allen Poe denigrated the game because he thought it involved boring calculations rather than creative thought. Scientist have examined these ideas in a systematic way and have discovered some unexpected answers.

Around the turn of the century, the French psychologist, Alfred Binet, the father of the IQ test, investigated the memory capacity of many of the noted chess players of his time and was surprised to find that their memory span was essentially the same as that of less skilled chess players. Several Russian psychologists examined the IQ scores of their top ranking players in the 1920’s and found that the range of intelligence for this group mirrored the range of intelligence in the general population. Thus, the early systematic investigations indicated that highly skilled chess players are neither especially bright nor gifted with “photographic” memories.

A Dutch psychologist, Adrian deGroot, a skilled player himself, made a detailed study in the 1930’s and 1940’s of the cognitive processes involved in chess play. He traveled around Europe and across the Atlantic with most of the top players of his day. Using a battery of testing procedures, deGroot tried to discover what made the highly skilled player different from average ones. One of his tests involved complicated middle game positions which the chess players studied and then selected the best move. deGroot had his subjects report their thoughts as they worked on these problems. He carefully recorded each verbal protocol and later made a systematic analysis of each player’s thinking process. After several years of data collection, deGroot summarized his findings by presenting average values for several important measures. Top players and average players were very similar in the quantitative aspects of their chess thinking. They considered a similar number of future positions (about 35), had equivalent depths of maximum look-ahead (about 6 and 1/2 plies), looked at an equal number of moves of the first level (about 4), and made the same number of fresh starts (about 3). The top players were not considering hundreds of positions nor were they doing more or deeper analysis than the average player. The only clear difference seemed to be in their choice of what to analyze and their final move selection.

deGroot noted that all of his subjects were silent just after a new position was presented, and no matter how much he urged them to talk, this pause occurred. He surmised that some important nonverbal process was taking place when the player first began his analysis. Later research confirmed this hypothesis. A Russian experiment demonstrated by eye movement analysis that subjects made a global visual inspection of the position when it was first presented. This perceptual processing was apparently the crucial point where the strong and the average players began to diverge. Subsequent research by deGroot indicated that strong players can remember the location of almost all the pieces when they are briefly shown a complicated middle game position while average players remember far less. This advantage disappears if the pieces are randomly placed on the board. The superior memory is therefore chess specific. The most plausible interpretation of this finding is that experienced chess players develop special perceptual skills such that they “see” chess pieces in meaningful patterns. In the memory task, they remember 6 or 7 piece groupings while inexperienced players remember 6 or 7 pieces. Subsequent research in this country has confirmed this interpretation.

The current theory of chess skill is that player develop, through years of practice, a very specific set of perceptual skills in which chess pieces are perceived in meaningful patterns rather than as individual pieces, and they also learn what to do with these patterns to produce winning chess positions. Learning to play chess is like learning to read. For the child, writing consists of many unfamiliar letters mixed in confusing patterns all over the page. For an experienced reader, however, the letters are almost unnoticed. Instead, the page is perceived in terms of words and phrases, with the latter part of each sentence processed only briefly, because the reader had anticipated the general idea in advance from the context of the passage. Research indicates that a very similar process occurs in chess. The experienced player sees a familiar terrain populated by frequently encountered piece groupings. He knows what the patterns connote and what is required for skillful play. Chess skill is a perpetual skill, not a process of computation. Careful move-by-move analysis is used only as a confirmation that the opponent does not have a tactical shot which might refute the intended line of play.


I wonder if this was ever refuted.... this was written in the mid 80's.

Assuming that this might be true.... 6.1/2 plies.... I wonder when if ever an engine will become so advanced to beat a GM regularly at 6 or 7 plies.

I think David Levy made the wrong bet... it should have been that he would never be beaten by a computer that plays 6 plies :)

Best regards

Nick
I can only say that I believe that it is nonsense.
I see nothing about the playing strength of the players who are described to be "top players" so I doubt if they are really top players and not some strong player(like rating 2300 today or even 2500 that cannot be described as top players).

I believe that humans with average intelligence may be strong players but I do not believe that they can become top players(rating above 2700).

I am also sure that GM's calculate more than 6-7 plies in part of the positions because there are positions that even I calculate more than 6-7 plies including middle game position

Let take even the simple mate pattern that
I knew even at the time that I began to play chess in tournament
and was unrated.

Qc5+ Kh1 Nf2+ Kg1 Nh3+ Kh1 Qg1+ Rxg1 Nf2 mate
The number of plies is 9 plies forward

If a player is careful not to make a mistake because it allows his opponent to win in this way then he calculate 10 plies forward.

I also believe that many chess players do not describe correctly their thoughts in words

They may say that Qc5+ lead to a known mate without giving all the line but it does not mean that they do not calculate it.

Not calculating can cause them to lose by a wrong sacrifice because
the same idea can also fail after
Qc5+ Kh1 Nf2+ Kg1 Nh3+ Kh1 Qg1+ Ne2xg1 Nf2+ Ra2xf2

Uri
User avatar
Spacious_Mind
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Alabama

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Spacious_Mind »

Uri Blass wrote:
Spacious_Mind wrote:Ok I found it. It was actually an article written by Peter Frey, who worked together with Larry Atkin:

HOW HUMANS PLAY

What does a chess master have that you and I do not have? Many people have been interested in determining the psychological attributes of a chess champion. The strong chess player is often thought of as a formidable calculating machine with incredible memory capacity. Edgar Allen Poe denigrated the game because he thought it involved boring calculations rather than creative thought. Scientist have examined these ideas in a systematic way and have discovered some unexpected answers.

Around the turn of the century, the French psychologist, Alfred Binet, the father of the IQ test, investigated the memory capacity of many of the noted chess players of his time and was surprised to find that their memory span was essentially the same as that of less skilled chess players. Several Russian psychologists examined the IQ scores of their top ranking players in the 1920’s and found that the range of intelligence for this group mirrored the range of intelligence in the general population. Thus, the early systematic investigations indicated that highly skilled chess players are neither especially bright nor gifted with “photographic” memories.

A Dutch psychologist, Adrian deGroot, a skilled player himself, made a detailed study in the 1930’s and 1940’s of the cognitive processes involved in chess play. He traveled around Europe and across the Atlantic with most of the top players of his day. Using a battery of testing procedures, deGroot tried to discover what made the highly skilled player different from average ones. One of his tests involved complicated middle game positions which the chess players studied and then selected the best move. deGroot had his subjects report their thoughts as they worked on these problems. He carefully recorded each verbal protocol and later made a systematic analysis of each player’s thinking process. After several years of data collection, deGroot summarized his findings by presenting average values for several important measures. Top players and average players were very similar in the quantitative aspects of their chess thinking. They considered a similar number of future positions (about 35), had equivalent depths of maximum look-ahead (about 6 and 1/2 plies), looked at an equal number of moves of the first level (about 4), and made the same number of fresh starts (about 3). The top players were not considering hundreds of positions nor were they doing more or deeper analysis than the average player. The only clear difference seemed to be in their choice of what to analyze and their final move selection.

deGroot noted that all of his subjects were silent just after a new position was presented, and no matter how much he urged them to talk, this pause occurred. He surmised that some important nonverbal process was taking place when the player first began his analysis. Later research confirmed this hypothesis. A Russian experiment demonstrated by eye movement analysis that subjects made a global visual inspection of the position when it was first presented. This perceptual processing was apparently the crucial point where the strong and the average players began to diverge. Subsequent research by deGroot indicated that strong players can remember the location of almost all the pieces when they are briefly shown a complicated middle game position while average players remember far less. This advantage disappears if the pieces are randomly placed on the board. The superior memory is therefore chess specific. The most plausible interpretation of this finding is that experienced chess players develop special perceptual skills such that they “see” chess pieces in meaningful patterns. In the memory task, they remember 6 or 7 piece groupings while inexperienced players remember 6 or 7 pieces. Subsequent research in this country has confirmed this interpretation.

The current theory of chess skill is that player develop, through years of practice, a very specific set of perceptual skills in which chess pieces are perceived in meaningful patterns rather than as individual pieces, and they also learn what to do with these patterns to produce winning chess positions. Learning to play chess is like learning to read. For the child, writing consists of many unfamiliar letters mixed in confusing patterns all over the page. For an experienced reader, however, the letters are almost unnoticed. Instead, the page is perceived in terms of words and phrases, with the latter part of each sentence processed only briefly, because the reader had anticipated the general idea in advance from the context of the passage. Research indicates that a very similar process occurs in chess. The experienced player sees a familiar terrain populated by frequently encountered piece groupings. He knows what the patterns connote and what is required for skillful play. Chess skill is a perpetual skill, not a process of computation. Careful move-by-move analysis is used only as a confirmation that the opponent does not have a tactical shot which might refute the intended line of play.


I wonder if this was ever refuted.... this was written in the mid 80's.

Assuming that this might be true.... 6.1/2 plies.... I wonder when if ever an engine will become so advanced to beat a GM regularly at 6 or 7 plies.

I think David Levy made the wrong bet... it should have been that he would never be beaten by a computer that plays 6 plies :)

Best regards

Nick
I can only say that I believe that it is nonsense.
I see nothing about the playing strength of the players who are described to be "top players" so I doubt if they are really top players and not some strong player(like rating 2300 today or even 2500 that cannot be described as top players).

I believe that humans with average intelligence may be strong players but I do not believe that they can become top players(rating above 2700).

I am also sure that GM's calculate more than 6-7 plies in part of the positions because there are positions that even I calculate more than 6-7 plies including middle game position

Let take even the simple mate pattern that
I knew even at the time that I began to play chess in tournament
and was unrated.

Qc5+ Kh1 Nf2+ Kg1 Nh3+ Kh1 Qg1+ Rxg1 Nf2 mate
The number of plies is 9 plies forward

If a player is careful not to make a mistake because it allows his opponent to win in this way then he calculate 10 plies forward.

I also believe that many chess players do not describe correctly their thoughts in words

They may say that Qc5+ lead to a known mate without giving all the line but it does not mean that they do not calculate it.

Not calculating can cause them to lose by a wrong sacrifice because
the same idea can also fail after
Qc5+ Kh1 Nf2+ Kg1 Nh3+ Kh1 Qg1+ Ne2xg1 Nf2+ Ra2xf2

Uri
Hi Uri,

At first I also thought it cannot be right, but the more I wondered about it, the more I think that it is probably very right indeed, much more right than people stating that they think xx plies ahead. It would be impossible to think many plies ahead. You just cannot analyze every possible move on the board. Time in a game wouldnt even allow you to do that and the stress of doing it would cause errors in judgement. And this maybe where us weaker players fall flat we try to analyze deeply which is likely the wrong approach. What I think happens is a human has the talent to selectively see what he wants to pursue and this he can search deeper perhaps even to xx plies in simpler variations. But only in the line that he is following. He cannot go beyond that. (time restraints) I do think the visualization of the position which is the key. I think most of us can visualize a games position that we have played (perhaps even lying in bed at night after you played someone) and you can replay the position in your head and find moves. But what you are not doing is searching everything deeply, You are selectively choosing what you want to search. I think TOP players are probably much better at this then mere humans... but I don't think they search deeper...they just see things better.

Your other example was exactly as written for when you learn to read and write. You memorized the moves and you know them... once you know them you do not search for them again...you just know them.

Anyway that is my take on this.

Best regards

Nick
User avatar
Spacious_Mind
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Alabama

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Spacious_Mind »

Uri Blass wrote:
Spacious_Mind wrote:Ok I found it. It was actually an article written by Peter Frey, who worked together with Larry Atkin:

HOW HUMANS PLAY

What does a chess master have that you and I do not have? Many people have been interested in determining the psychological attributes of a chess champion. The strong chess player is often thought of as a formidable calculating machine with incredible memory capacity. Edgar Allen Poe denigrated the game because he thought it involved boring calculations rather than creative thought. Scientist have examined these ideas in a systematic way and have discovered some unexpected answers.

Around the turn of the century, the French psychologist, Alfred Binet, the father of the IQ test, investigated the memory capacity of many of the noted chess players of his time and was surprised to find that their memory span was essentially the same as that of less skilled chess players. Several Russian psychologists examined the IQ scores of their top ranking players in the 1920’s and found that the range of intelligence for this group mirrored the range of intelligence in the general population. Thus, the early systematic investigations indicated that highly skilled chess players are neither especially bright nor gifted with “photographic” memories.

A Dutch psychologist, Adrian deGroot, a skilled player himself, made a detailed study in the 1930’s and 1940’s of the cognitive processes involved in chess play. He traveled around Europe and across the Atlantic with most of the top players of his day. Using a battery of testing procedures, deGroot tried to discover what made the highly skilled player different from average ones. One of his tests involved complicated middle game positions which the chess players studied and then selected the best move. deGroot had his subjects report their thoughts as they worked on these problems. He carefully recorded each verbal protocol and later made a systematic analysis of each player’s thinking process. After several years of data collection, deGroot summarized his findings by presenting average values for several important measures. Top players and average players were very similar in the quantitative aspects of their chess thinking. They considered a similar number of future positions (about 35), had equivalent depths of maximum look-ahead (about 6 and 1/2 plies), looked at an equal number of moves of the first level (about 4), and made the same number of fresh starts (about 3). The top players were not considering hundreds of positions nor were they doing more or deeper analysis than the average player. The only clear difference seemed to be in their choice of what to analyze and their final move selection.

deGroot noted that all of his subjects were silent just after a new position was presented, and no matter how much he urged them to talk, this pause occurred. He surmised that some important nonverbal process was taking place when the player first began his analysis. Later research confirmed this hypothesis. A Russian experiment demonstrated by eye movement analysis that subjects made a global visual inspection of the position when it was first presented. This perceptual processing was apparently the crucial point where the strong and the average players began to diverge. Subsequent research by deGroot indicated that strong players can remember the location of almost all the pieces when they are briefly shown a complicated middle game position while average players remember far less. This advantage disappears if the pieces are randomly placed on the board. The superior memory is therefore chess specific. The most plausible interpretation of this finding is that experienced chess players develop special perceptual skills such that they “see” chess pieces in meaningful patterns. In the memory task, they remember 6 or 7 piece groupings while inexperienced players remember 6 or 7 pieces. Subsequent research in this country has confirmed this interpretation.

The current theory of chess skill is that player develop, through years of practice, a very specific set of perceptual skills in which chess pieces are perceived in meaningful patterns rather than as individual pieces, and they also learn what to do with these patterns to produce winning chess positions. Learning to play chess is like learning to read. For the child, writing consists of many unfamiliar letters mixed in confusing patterns all over the page. For an experienced reader, however, the letters are almost unnoticed. Instead, the page is perceived in terms of words and phrases, with the latter part of each sentence processed only briefly, because the reader had anticipated the general idea in advance from the context of the passage. Research indicates that a very similar process occurs in chess. The experienced player sees a familiar terrain populated by frequently encountered piece groupings. He knows what the patterns connote and what is required for skillful play. Chess skill is a perpetual skill, not a process of computation. Careful move-by-move analysis is used only as a confirmation that the opponent does not have a tactical shot which might refute the intended line of play.


I wonder if this was ever refuted.... this was written in the mid 80's.

Assuming that this might be true.... 6.1/2 plies.... I wonder when if ever an engine will become so advanced to beat a GM regularly at 6 or 7 plies.

I think David Levy made the wrong bet... it should have been that he would never be beaten by a computer that plays 6 plies :)

Best regards

Nick
I can only say that I believe that it is nonsense.
I see nothing about the playing strength of the players who are described to be "top players" so I doubt if they are really top players and not some strong player(like rating 2300 today or even 2500 that cannot be described as top players).

I believe that humans with average intelligence may be strong players but I do not believe that they can become top players(rating above 2700).

I am also sure that GM's calculate more than 6-7 plies in part of the positions because there are positions that even I calculate more than 6-7 plies including middle game position

Let take even the simple mate pattern that
I knew even at the time that I began to play chess in tournament
and was unrated.

Qc5+ Kh1 Nf2+ Kg1 Nh3+ Kh1 Qg1+ Rxg1 Nf2 mate
The number of plies is 9 plies forward

If a player is careful not to make a mistake because it allows his opponent to win in this way then he calculate 10 plies forward.

I also believe that many chess players do not describe correctly their thoughts in words

They may say that Qc5+ lead to a known mate without giving all the line but it does not mean that they do not calculate it.

Not calculating can cause them to lose by a wrong sacrifice because
the same idea can also fail after
Qc5+ Kh1 Nf2+ Kg1 Nh3+ Kh1 Qg1+ Ne2xg1 Nf2+ Ra2xf2

Uri
Hi Uri,

At first I also thought it cannot be right, but the more I wondered about it, the more I think that it is probably very right indeed, much more right than people stating that they think xx plies ahead. It would be impossible to think many plies ahead. You just cannot analyze every possible move on the board. Time in a game wouldnt even allow you to do that and the stress of doing it would cause errors in judgement. And this maybe where us weaker players fall flat we try to analyze deeply which is likely the wrong approach. What I think happens is a human has the talent to selectively see what he wants to pursue and this he can search deeper perhaps even to xx plies in simpler variations. But only in the line that he is following. He cannot go beyond that. (time restraints) I do think the visualization of the position which is the key. I think most of us can visualize a games position that we have played (perhaps even lying in bed at night after you played someone) and you can replay the position in your head and find moves. But what you are not doing is searching everything deeply, You are selectively choosing what you want to search. I think TOP players are probably much better at this then mere humans... but I don't think they search deeper...they just see things better.

Your other example was exactly as written for when you learn to read and write. You memorized the moves and you know them... once you know them you do not search for them again...you just know them.

Anyway that is my take on this.

Best regards

Nick
Father
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: How deep does a human think when playing chess?

Post by Father »

... "6 ply" is just a few for human beings skills. I dont belive in that. A Super G.M. and ex-WCC, as Mister Fischer, Alekine, and Capablanca were - Q.E.P.D.- some times seen 17 complete moves, then it was "34 ply".

In other way, "the will" is as important as the intelligence is. Where there is a will there is a power, and many times, a player than play just for fun does not have any problem loosing her-his chess games again again and again.

Chess machines has the real answer for all these evaluation.

The best chess machine, finally is, the machine that looks jus a few depper than others. Mister Lasker had all the reason: The diference than mark the answere abouy why a person search a better performance than other deppend about his or her ability to seeing just a few more than our oponent. I belive that tactics is the more important secret for search the top of the top, If tactics had not have the key for winning the combat, then chess computers wont be where they are now.

Myths has been changed for Math
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.