The shogi solution to draws in chess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Rio
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:01 pm
Full name: Rio Malaschitz

Re: The shogi solution to draws in chess

Post by Rio »

The idea that the BW alternation sequence should be WBBWBW... is brilliant and fair. I played around with the calculator a bit and even came up with a WBBBBWWWBB sequence for players rated > 2600... Either way, it would be very interesting to watch. Imagine a world championship like that where every day is a scoreable result (something like in shogi or go).

It would be quite interesting if programmers tried to invent a variant of chess where the draw was not a draw at all. For example, in the case of a draw, the points would be added up like in Korean chess. Or white would have some superiority but would have to win (for example, black would have a piece combining a rook and a knight instead of a queen). If it were verified by a computer program that it was more or less evenly matched then this could be a very player-attractive variant. I'm actually surprised that nothing like that exists.
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pohl4711
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Location: Berlin, Germany
Full name: Stefan Pohl

Re: The shogi solution to draws in chess

Post by pohl4711 »

Rebel wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:26 am I have said this before and it is a bit of an educated guess but maybe we are witnessing the end of the Bayeselo / Ordo system.

Consider this example:

Match SF vs Dragon, 10,000 games, result: won 100 | draw 9900 | loss 0 | 5050 - 4950 = 50.5% = 3 elo
With Bayeselo or Ordo both will be rated that way, right?

In reality SF is much stronger, never lost a game, but won 100.

Maybe we need a new elo formula in Bayeselo / Ordo .

Two suggestions
1. A win counts as 1½ or even 2 points, a draw remains ½ point
2. Skip all draws.

Option [2] can be done without a program change and I would love to see how the CEGT and CCRL list will look like.
When using biased openings (my UHO openings for example), then there is a much better alternative: Gamepair-rescoring (perhaps using my Gamepairs Rescoring Tool):
Realizing Vondele's (Stockfish maintainer) idea: "Thinking uniquely in game pairs makes sense with the biased openings used these days. While pentanomial makes sense it is a bit complicated so we could simplify and score game pairs only (not games) as W-L-D (a traditional score of 2-0, or 1.5-0.5 is just a W)."
I do so in my UHO-Top10 Ratinglist:
https://www.sp-cc.de/uho_ratinglist.htm
(first there is the normal ORDO-ratinglist (10000 games per engine), but scrolling down a little, you see the Gamepair-rescored ORDO-ratinglist (5000 gamepairs per engine)...)