which engine is best against humans with queen odds?

[Uri Blass]

I consider to organize in the future human-computer games with queen odds(of course against weak humans) and I wonder which engine is best against humans in these conditions.

Is is Dragon or is there another engine?
What is the best engine against weak engines in these conditions?

[Chessqueen]

I consider to organize in the future human-computer games with queen odds(of course against weak humans) and I wonder which engine is best against humans in these conditions.

Is is Dragon or is there another engine?
What is the best engine against weak engines in these conditions?

With Queen Odds, if it is against players rated below 1575 either Stockfish or Komodo would do just fine. Here are a few games when I visited
Philippines Thursday and leaving today in 30 minutes, 4 hours ago I visited one of their local Chess Club and found Nelson a 1545 rated player since I am with my i7 laptop computer he agreed to play one game with Queen Odds against Komodo 13.3 I only had to pay him $10.00 since he lost and if he had won $25.00 which is a lot of money in Philippines and $15.00 for a draw. Well he tried hard to get at least a draw but was could NOT draw against the Beast. I also played one game against a local Fulo, Nunilon III rated 2025 and drew at TC 5'+3"

[pgn][Event "Queen Odds"]
[Site "Philippines Chess Club"]
[Date "2021.09.05"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "Nelson"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "1545"]
[Time "02:09:31"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 3 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "100"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Nf3 Nc6 2. d3 Nf6 3. e4 d5 4. e5 Ng4 5. d4 Bf5 6. c3 Qd7 7. h3 Bxb1 8.
Rxb1 Qf5 9. Ra1 Nh6 10. Bb5 g6 11. O-O O-O-O 12. Nh4 Qe6 13. Nf3 Bg7 14.
Re1 Qd7 15. b4 Rde8 16. a4 a6 17. Bd3 Nf5 18. b5 axb5 19. axb5 Nb8 20. g4
Nh6 21. Bf4 Nxg4 22. e6 fxe6 23. hxg4 e5 24. Nxe5 Bxe5 25. Rxe5 Qxg4+ 26.
Bg3 Qf3 27. Re3 Qg4 28. Be2 Qf5 29. Re5 Qd7 30. b6 Na6 31. bxc7 Nxc7 32. c4
Qh3 33. cxd5 b6 34. Rc1 Kb7 35. Bf3 Na6 36. Rce1 Kc8 37. Re6 Nb8 38. Rxb6
Ref8 39. Bg2 Qg4 40. Rxb8+ Kd7 41. Rb7+ Kd8 42. Rexe7 g5 43. d6 Qc8 44.
Rec7 Rf6 45. Bc6 Qa8 46. Rb1 Rf7 47. Bxa8 Rxc7 48. dxc7+ Kd7 49. Rb8 Rc8
50. Rxc8 Kxc8 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

As you can see in this game a 1600 rated player might be too much for any top engine, and Stockfish14 will not do any better than Komodo with such high handicap, but again with many games and openings either Komodo or Stockfish14 might get a few draws and even a few wins against 1600 to 1625 players, it all depends on how much experience those 1600's have. I know a few 1600 players that have read more than 2 books on middlegames, and 1 book on endgames, they know chess opening principles, and have books on tactics and strategies, but when my online instructor go over their games, he realized that with all those knowledge, they failed to check their opponents last move and their intentions, and forgot to check for pin, possible forks, and sacrifices that their opponents can play on them on the very next move, otherwise they would be at least 1800 rated players with all that knowledge that they have by reading those books, all that they need is self disciple during their games. For example this young player Jose that played this game, he was holding a small notebook on his hands and I saw him constantly checking before he made a move, when I asked him why he read his small notebook so often he answered, to remind myself of checking and double checking Komodo last move and see if I can detect any tactical move or fork, or pin or sacrifices in the next move. which prevent him of blundering as much as he used to blunder before

[pgn][Event "Queen Odds"]
[Site "Philippines Chess Club"]
[Date "2021.09.05"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "Jose"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "1600"]
[Time "08:09:17"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "43"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 Bg4 5. Nbd2 Bxf3 6. gxf3 Nh5 7. Bg3
Nxg3 8. hxg3 e5 9. O-O-O exd4 10. exd4 Nxd4 11. Re1+ Be7 12. c3 Ne6 13. Re5
O-O 14. f4 Bf6 15. Reh5 h6 16. Rxh6 gxh6 17. Kd1 Bg7 18. f3 c5 19. Kc2 d4
20. Bc4 dxc3 21. bxc3 {White resigns} Qd6 22. Ne4 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

I consider to organize in the future human-computer games with queen odds(of course against weak humans) and I wonder which engine is best against humans in these conditions.

Is is Dragon or is there another engine?
What is the best engine against weak engines in these conditions?

With Queen Odds, if it is against players rated below 1575 either Stockfish or Komodo would do just fine. Here are a few games when I visited
Philippines Thursday and leaving today in 30 minutes, 4 hours ago I visited one of their local Chess Club and found Nelson a 1545 rated player since I am with my i7 laptop computer he agreed to play one game with Queen Odds against Komodo 13.3 I only had to pay him $10.00 since he lost and if he had won $25.00 which is a lot of money in Philippines and $15.00 for a draw. Well he tried hard to get at least a draw but was could NOT draw against the Beast. I also played one game against a local Fulo, Nunilon III rated 2025 and drew at TC 5'+3" . I do not know if you had a chance to really see this game, but Komodo played a very aggressive and open game without the Queen, this is an example of what a silicon monster can do without its Queen, it will attack any 1500 to 1575 player relentless it force him to make a tactical mistake. Komodo's move 22. e6 was great which Nelson totally missed in order to retake the Knight.

[pgn][Event "Queen Odds"]
[Site "Philippines Chess Club"]
[Date "2021.09.05"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "Nelson"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "1545"]
[Time "02:09:31"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 3 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "100"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Nf3 Nc6 2. d3 Nf6 3. e4 d5 4. e5 Ng4 5. d4 Bf5 6. c3 Qd7 7. h3 Bxb1 8.
Rxb1 Qf5 9. Ra1 Nh6 10. Bb5 g6 11. O-O O-O-O 12. Nh4 Qe6 13. Nf3 Bg7 14.
Re1 Qd7 15. b4 Rde8 16. a4 a6 17. Bd3 Nf5 18. b5 axb5 19. axb5 Nb8 20. g4
Nh6 21. Bf4 Nxg4 22. e6 fxe6 23. hxg4 e5 24. Nxe5 Bxe5 25. Rxe5 Qxg4+ 26.
Bg3 Qf3 27. Re3 Qg4 28. Be2 Qf5 29. Re5 Qd7 30. b6 Na6 31. bxc7 Nxc7 32. c4
Qh3 33. cxd5 b6 34. Rc1 Kb7 35. Bf3 Na6 36. Rce1 Kc8 37. Re6 Nb8 38. Rxb6
Ref8 39. Bg2 Qg4 40. Rxb8+ Kd7 41. Rb7+ Kd8 42. Rexe7 g5 43. d6 Qc8 44.
Rec7 Rf6 45. Bc6 Qa8 46. Rb1 Rf7 47. Bxa8 Rxc7 48. dxc7+ Kd7 49. Rb8 Rc8
50. Rxc8 Kxc8 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]

[Uri Blass]

As you can see in this game a 1600 rated player might be too much for any top engine, and Stockfish14 will not do any better than Komodo with such high handicap, but again with many games and openings either Komodo or Stockfish14 might get a few draws and even a few wins against 1600 to 1625 players, it all depends on how much experience those 1600's have. I know a few 1600 players that have read more than 2 books on middlegames, and 1 book on endgames, they know chess opening principles, and have books on tactics and strategies, but when my online instructor go over their games, he realized that with all those knowledge, they failed to check their opponents last move and their intentions, and forgot to check for pin, possible forks, and sacrifices that their opponents can play on them on the very next move, otherwise they would be at least 1800 rated players with all that knowledge that they have by reading those books, all that they need is self disciple during their games. For example this young player Jose that played this game, he was holding a small notebook on his hands and I saw him constantly checking before he made a move, when I asked him why he read his small notebook so often he answered, to remind myself of checking and double checking Komodo last move and see if I can detect any tactical move or fork, or pin or sacrifices in the next move. which prevent him of blundering as much as he used to blunder before

[pgn][Event "Queen Odds"]
[Site "Philippines Chess Club"]
[Date "2021.09.05"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "Jose"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "1600"]
[Time "08:09:17"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "43"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 Bg4 5. Nbd2 Bxf3 6. gxf3 Nh5 7. Bg3
Nxg3 8. hxg3 e5 9. O-O-O exd4 10. exd4 Nxd4 11. Re1+ Be7 12. c3 Ne6 13. Re5
O-O 14. f4 Bf6 15. Reh5 h6 16. Rxh6 gxh6 17. Kd1 Bg7 18. f3 c5 19. Kc2 d4
20. Bc4 dxc3 21. bxc3 {White resigns} Qd6 22. Ne4 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

something is clearly wrong with an engine that plays Rxh6
In any case I see no reason to use an old version of komodo in games because I have no reason to believe that it is better than dragon.

[Chessqueen]

As you can see in this game a 1600 rated player might be too much for any top engine, and Stockfish14 will not do any better than Komodo with such high handicap, but again with many games and openings either Komodo or Stockfish14 might get a few draws and even a few wins against 1600 to 1625 players, it all depends on how much experience those 1600's have. I know a few 1600 players that have read more than 2 books on middlegames, and 1 book on endgames, they know chess opening principles, and have books on tactics and strategies, but when my online instructor go over their games, he realized that with all those knowledge, they failed to check their opponents last move and their intentions, and forgot to check for pin, possible forks, and sacrifices that their opponents can play on them on the very next move, otherwise they would be at least 1800 rated players with all that knowledge that they have by reading those books, all that they need is self disciple during their games. For example this young player Jose that played this game, he was holding a small notebook on his hands and I saw him constantly checking before he made a move, when I asked him why he read his small notebook so often he answered, to remind myself of checking and double checking Komodo last move and see if I can detect any tactical move or fork, or pin or sacrifices in the next move. which prevent him of blundering as much as he used to blunder before

[pgn][Event "Queen Odds"]
[Site "Philippines Chess Club"]
[Date "2021.09.05"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "Jose"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "1600"]
[Time "08:09:17"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "43"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 Bg4 5. Nbd2 Bxf3 6. gxf3 Nh5 7. Bg3
Nxg3 8. hxg3 e5 9. O-O-O exd4 10. exd4 Nxd4 11. Re1+ Be7 12. c3 Ne6 13. Re5
O-O 14. f4 Bf6 15. Reh5 h6 16. Rxh6 gxh6 17. Kd1 Bg7 18. f3 c5 19. Kc2 d4
20. Bc4 dxc3 21. bxc3 {White resigns} Qd6 22. Ne4 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

something is clearly wrong with an engine that plays Rxh6
In any case I see no reason to use an old version of komodo in games because I have no reason to believe that it is better than dragon.

I was using MCTS for this game and later I found out that MCTS can not be used for any handicap greater than a Rook.

This is Mr. Kaufman explanation. "This is strange because the blunder 16. Rxh6?? makes no sense, I can't replicate it at any time or depth with K14.1 (I don't have 13.3 on my laptop). Were you perhaps using MCTS? I think MCTS just falls apart completely when down a huge amount like this. I would only use MCTS for handicap play if the handicap is not more than a rook, if the time control is Rapid rather than blitz, and if the number of threads is at least four."