It's a draw...

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Glarean
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Switzerland
Full name: Walter Eigenmann

It's a draw...

Post by Glarean »

[fen]4r3/1b1p4/3p4/1p1p1k2/pP1P4/P1P2PP1/1P6/5K2 b[/fen]
Is there an engine that rates this position as a draw?
Maybe one of the ancient AB programs without null move pruning?
Regards: Walter

Analysis by Stockfish 100921:

1. -+ (-8.22): 15...Lc6 16.Kf2 Ke6 17.Kg2 Tg8 18.Kf2 Kf6 19.Kg2 Tc8 20.Kf1 Te8 21.Kf2 Te6 22.Kf1 Kf7 23.Kf2 Te7 24.Kf1 La8 25.Kf2 Ke8 26.Kf1 Lb7 27.Kf2 Lc6 28.Kf1 Te6 29.Kf2
2. -+ (-8.14): 15...Lc8 16.Kf2 Kg5 17.Kf1 Lb7 18.Kf2 Th8 19.Kg1 Kg6 20.Kg2 Kf6 21.Kg1 Th7 22.Kg2 Lc6 23.Kg1 Kg6 24.Kg2 La8 25.Kg1 Kg7 26.Kg2 Kg8 27.Kg1 Lc6 28.Kg2 Tg7 29.Kf2
3. -+ (-8.22): 15...Kf6 16.Kf2 Kg5 17.Kf1 Kg6 18.Kf2 Te6 19.Kf1 Lc6 20.Kf2 Kg7 21.Kf1 Te7 22.Kf2 Kf8 23.Kf1 La8 24.Kf2 Tf7 25.Kg2 Kg8 26.Kf2 Tg7 27.Kg2 Lb7 28.Kf2
4. -+ (-8.21): 15...Kg6 16.Kf2 Kh5 17.Kf1 Te6 18.Kf2 Lc6 19.Kf1 La8 20.Kf2 Kg6 21.Kf1 Lb7 22.Kf2 Kh7 23.Kf1 Kg8 24.Kf2 Kf8 25.Kf1 Te7 26.Kf2 Lc6 27.Kf1 Kg8 28.Kf2
Uri Blass
Posts: 10282
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: It's a draw...

Post by Uri Blass »

Glarean wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:56 pm [fen]4r3/1b1p4/3p4/1p1p1k2/pP1P4/P1P2PP1/1P6/5K2 b[/fen]
Is there an engine that rates this position as a draw?
Maybe one of the ancient AB programs without null move pruning?
Regards: Walter

Analysis by Stockfish 100921:

1. -+ (-8.22): 15...Lc6 16.Kf2 Ke6 17.Kg2 Tg8 18.Kf2 Kf6 19.Kg2 Tc8 20.Kf1 Te8 21.Kf2 Te6 22.Kf1 Kf7 23.Kf2 Te7 24.Kf1 La8 25.Kf2 Ke8 26.Kf1 Lb7 27.Kf2 Lc6 28.Kf1 Te6 29.Kf2
2. -+ (-8.14): 15...Lc8 16.Kf2 Kg5 17.Kf1 Lb7 18.Kf2 Th8 19.Kg1 Kg6 20.Kg2 Kf6 21.Kg1 Th7 22.Kg2 Lc6 23.Kg1 Kg6 24.Kg2 La8 25.Kg1 Kg7 26.Kg2 Kg8 27.Kg1 Lc6 28.Kg2 Tg7 29.Kf2
3. -+ (-8.22): 15...Kf6 16.Kf2 Kg5 17.Kf1 Kg6 18.Kf2 Te6 19.Kf1 Lc6 20.Kf2 Kg7 21.Kf1 Te7 22.Kf2 Kf8 23.Kf1 La8 24.Kf2 Tf7 25.Kg2 Kg8 26.Kf2 Tg7 27.Kg2 Lb7 28.Kf2
4. -+ (-8.21): 15...Kg6 16.Kf2 Kh5 17.Kf1 Te6 18.Kf2 Lc6 19.Kf1 La8 20.Kf2 Kg6 21.Kf1 Lb7 22.Kf2 Kh7 23.Kf1 Kg8 24.Kf2 Kf8 25.Kf1 Te7 26.Kf2 Lc6 27.Kf1 Kg8 28.Kf2
I do not see the relevance of null move pruning.
It is not a draw that you can see by search unless you search 100 plies forward.
Glarean
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Switzerland
Full name: Walter Eigenmann

Re: It's a draw...

Post by Glarean »

Of course, humans and computers play different chess. Nevertheless, it would be wonderful if we had engines that could immediately evaluate such a position correctly as a draw. Just like any beginner can do...
Jouni
Posts: 3286
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:15 pm

Re: It's a draw...

Post by Jouni »

You need engine with fortress detection:

Analysis by Crystal 140121:
...
1...Kg5
= (-0.08 ++) Depth: 12/44 00:02:17 1028mN
1...Kg5 2.Kf2 Kf6 3.Kf1
= (0.00) Depth: 12/78 00:02:18 1037mN
1...Kg5
= (-0.04 ++) Depth: 13/32 00:02:18 1038mN
1...Kg5 2.Kf2 Kf6 3.Kf1
= (0.00) Depth: 13/62 00:02:19 1042mN
1...Kg5 2.Kf2 Kf6 3.Kf1
= (0.00) Depth: 14/62 00:02:20 1050mN

:D
Jouni
Glarean
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Switzerland
Full name: Walter Eigenmann

Re: It's a draw...

Post by Glarean »

Good hint :!: :)