The uniqueness problem

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Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

The uniqueness problem

Post by Hobacle »

[fen]r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1[/fen]
Are the first several winning moves unique, if White is able to win here indeed?
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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: The uniqueness problem

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:47 pm [fen]r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1[/fen]
Are the first several winning moves unique, if White is able to win here indeed?
Well, I'd say yes, as for the first three ones. First one d5 has alternatives but no forced winners, even if the advantage might be enough with less good moves still to win at large maybe.

r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

1. d5 Qxd5 2. Qg4 Qc5+ 3. Kh1 g6 4. Qh4 e5 5. Ba3 Qd5

As far as this the line seems more or less forced and should be good enough for winning.

At 4th Bf6 (as well as Qh3 probably) still wins, even if not as fast as Qh4, at 5th Ba3 is more or less single best, even not the only winning one maybe, and at 6th Rad1 isn't neither single one game changer anymore at all:

Code: Select all

r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.39): 1.d5 Qxd5 2.Qg4 Qc5+ 3.Kh1 g6 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd5 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 a6 20.Re2 Nc4 21.Ree7 Rf8 22.h3 Nd6 23.Rbc7 h5 24.Red7 Nf5 25.Kh2 

2. +/-  (1.04): 1.Qd2 Nxd4 2.Rad1 Rad8 3.b4 Nb7 4.Qc1 Qxa4 5.Be4 c5 6.Bxb7 Qxc2 7.Bxd4 Qxc1 8.Rxc1 cxd4 9.Rc7 d3 10.Kf2 d2 11.Rd1 Rd4 12.b5 Rfd8 13.Rc2 R4d7 14.Bf3 e5 15.Ra2 f5 16.Bc6 Rd3 17.Rxa7 e4 18.Ke2 R8d4 19.Rb7 f4 20.Rxb6 Re3+ 21.Kf2 Rc3 22.Ra6 Kf7 23.Ke2 Re3+ 24.Kf1 Rc3 

3. +/-  (0.88): 1.c3 Ne7 2.Qc2 f5 3.Rad1 Nd5 4.Ba3 Rfe8 5.b4 Nb7 6.c4 Nf4 7.Bf1 Nd6 8.g3 Ng6 9.Bg2 Ne4 10.Bb2 c6 11.Bxe4 fxe4 12.Qxe4 a6 13.a5 b5 14.Rc1 Rac8 15.cxb5 cxb5 16.Rc5 Nf8 17.Re2 h6 18.h4 Qd6 19.Qg4 Qd7 20.d5 exd5 21.Qxd7 Nxd7 22.Rxe8+ Rxe8 

(e.g. even also 3.Re3? might have chances to win yet still too, of course all alternatives to 1.d5! have to have some ?s too)


r4rk1/p1p2ppp/1pn1p3/n2q4/P7/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.56): 2.Qg4 Qc5+ 3.Kh1 g6 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd3 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 a6 20.Re2 Nc4 21.Ree7 Rf8 22.Rec7 b5 23.Kg1 Ne3 24.axb5 axb5 25.Rxb5 Rd8 26.Re5 Nf5 27.g4 Nd4 28.Ree7 Ne6 29.Red7 Rf8 30.Ra7 h6 31.Re7 Rc8 32.Rxf7 Rxc2 33.Rf6 Nf8 34.Ra8 Kg7 

2. =  (0.00): 2.Re3 Rad8 3.Rh3 h6 4.b4 Nc4 5.Bxg7 Kxg7 6.Qg4+ Kf6 7.Qh4+ Ke5 8.Qg3+ Kf6 


r4rk1/p1p2ppp/1pn1p3/n1q5/P5Q1/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R3R1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.49): 3.Kh1 g6 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd5 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 a6 20.Re2 Nc4 21.Ree7 Rf8 22.Rec7 b5 23.Kg1 Ne3 24.axb5 axb5 25.Rxb5 Rd8 26.Re5 Nf5 27.g4 Nd4 

2. =  (0.00): 3.Kf1 g6 4.Qh4 Rad8 5.Ba3 Qd4 6.Qxd4 Rxd4 7.Bxf8 Kxf8 8.Re4 Rb4 9.g4 Nb7 10.Rxb4 Nxb4 11.g5 a5 12.Ke2 Nc5 13.Rc1 Na2 14.Rf1 Nb4 15.Rb1 


r4rk1/p1p2p1p/1pn1p1p1/n1q5/P5Q1/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R3R2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.53): 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd5 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 h5 20.h3 Kg7 21.Rxa7 Rc6 22.Rd5 Nc4 23.Rdd7 Rf6 24.Rac7 Rf4 25.Rd3 Ne5 26.Re3 Kf6 

2. +-  (3.44): 4.Bf6 Rfd8 5.Qh3 Rxd3 6.Qxd3 Nb4 7.Qd2 Qd6 8.Qe2 c5 9.Rad1 Qf8 10.Qf3 Nac6 11.Rf1 Nd5 12.Bb2 Nd4 13.Bxd4 cxd4 14.Rxd4 f5 15.g4 Qc5 16.Rc4 Qe3 17.gxf5 Qxf3+ 18.Rxf3 gxf5 19.Rc6 Kf7 20.Rh3 Nf4 21.Rh4 Ng6 22.Rc7+ Kf6 23.Rhxh7 Rd8 24.Kg2 Rd2+ 25.Kf1 Ne5 26.Rh3 Kg5 27.Ke1 


r4rk1/p1p2p1p/1pn3p1/n1q1p3/P6Q/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R3R2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.69): 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd3 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 h5 20.h3 Kg7 21.Rxa7 Rc6 22.Kg1 Kh6 23.Ra6 Rc7 24.Ra8 Kg5 25.Re8 Rc5 26.Red8 Rc3 27.R8d6 Rc4 28.R6d4 Rc6 29.Rd5 f6 30.Rd6 Rc4 31.Rf2 f5 32.Re2 

2. +-  (1.92): 5.Be4 Rad8 6.Ba3 Nb4 7.Re2 Qd4 8.Qe1 c5 9.c3 Nd3 10.cxd4 Nxe1 11.Raxe1 exd4 12.Bd3 Nxb3 13.Re7 Na5 14.Bb5 Ra8 15.Ba6 Nc6 16.Rc7 Nb4 17.Bxb4 cxb4 18.Kg1 Rad8 19.Rc4 d3 20.Rxb4 d2 21.Rd1 Rfe8 22.Kf2 Re5 23.Bb5 Rd6 24.Rb3 Re4 25.Re3 Rf4+ 26.Rf3 Re4 27.h3 a6 28.Bxa6 Rxa4 29.Bd3 Rad4 30.Rxd2 R4d5 31.Re3 Rd8 32.Ke2 Rg5 33.Be4 Rxd2+ 34.Kxd2 Re5 35.Bf3 Rxe3 


r4rk1/p1p2p1p/1pn3p1/n2qp3/P6Q/BP1B4/2P3PP/R3R2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.50): 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe8 11.Bb5 Qe6 12.Qxe5 Qxe5 13.Rxe5 Nd6 14.Re3 Ne6 15.Bd7 Ng5 16.Re7 Rd8 17.Bc6 Ne6 18.Rf1 Nf5 19.Rd7 Kf8 20.Re1 Rxd7 21.Bxd7 Nfd4 22.c3 Ke7 23.Bxe6 Nxe6 24.g4 Kf6 25.Kg2 Nf4+ 26.Kf3 Nd5 27.Rc1 a5 28.Ke4 Ke6 29.bxa5 bxa5 30.Kd4 Nb6 

2. +-  (4.05): 6.Bxf8 Rxf8 7.b4 Nb7 8.Rad1 Qa2 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Qxe5 Nd6 11.Ra1 Qe6 12.Qc3 Qd7 13.Be2 Ne4 14.Qe3 Nd6 15.Bf3 Nf5 16.Qe5 Ne6 17.c3 Re8 18.Qf6 Qe7 19.Qxe7 Rxe7 20.a5 Kf8 21.Bc6 h5 22.a6 h4 23.Re5 Nf4 24.Rxe7 Nxe7 25.Bf3 Nf5 26.Rd1 Nd6 27.Kg1 Ne6 28.Bc6 Ke7
I hope it's what you meant regards
Peter.
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Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: The uniqueness problem

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:34 am
Hobacle wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:47 pm [fen]r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1[/fen]
Are the first several winning moves unique, if White is able to win here indeed?
Well, I'd say yes, as for the first three ones. First one d5 has alternatives but no forced winners, even if the advantage might be enough with less good moves still to win at large maybe.

r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

1. d5 Qxd5 2. Qg4 Qc5+ 3. Kh1 g6 4. Qh4 e5 5. Ba3 Qd5

As far as this the line seems more or less forced and should be good enough for winning.

At 4th Bf6 (as well as Qh3 probably) still wins, even if not as fast as Qh4, at 5th Ba3 is more or less single best, even not the only winning one maybe, and at 6th Rad1 isn't neither single one game changer anymore at all:

Code: Select all

r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.39): 1.d5 Qxd5 2.Qg4 Qc5+ 3.Kh1 g6 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd5 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 a6 20.Re2 Nc4 21.Ree7 Rf8 22.h3 Nd6 23.Rbc7 h5 24.Red7 Nf5 25.Kh2 

2. +/-  (1.04): 1.Qd2 Nxd4 2.Rad1 Rad8 3.b4 Nb7 4.Qc1 Qxa4 5.Be4 c5 6.Bxb7 Qxc2 7.Bxd4 Qxc1 8.Rxc1 cxd4 9.Rc7 d3 10.Kf2 d2 11.Rd1 Rd4 12.b5 Rfd8 13.Rc2 R4d7 14.Bf3 e5 15.Ra2 f5 16.Bc6 Rd3 17.Rxa7 e4 18.Ke2 R8d4 19.Rb7 f4 20.Rxb6 Re3+ 21.Kf2 Rc3 22.Ra6 Kf7 23.Ke2 Re3+ 24.Kf1 Rc3 

3. +/-  (0.88): 1.c3 Ne7 2.Qc2 f5 3.Rad1 Nd5 4.Ba3 Rfe8 5.b4 Nb7 6.c4 Nf4 7.Bf1 Nd6 8.g3 Ng6 9.Bg2 Ne4 10.Bb2 c6 11.Bxe4 fxe4 12.Qxe4 a6 13.a5 b5 14.Rc1 Rac8 15.cxb5 cxb5 16.Rc5 Nf8 17.Re2 h6 18.h4 Qd6 19.Qg4 Qd7 20.d5 exd5 21.Qxd7 Nxd7 22.Rxe8+ Rxe8 

(e.g. even also 3.Re3 might have chances to win yet still too, of course all alternatives to 1.d5! have to have some ?s)


r4rk1/p1p2ppp/1pn1p3/n2q4/P7/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.56): 2.Qg4 Qc5+ 3.Kh1 g6 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd3 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 a6 20.Re2 Nc4 21.Ree7 Rf8 22.Rec7 b5 23.Kg1 Ne3 24.axb5 axb5 25.Rxb5 Rd8 26.Re5 Nf5 27.g4 Nd4 28.Ree7 Ne6 29.Red7 Rf8 30.Ra7 h6 31.Re7 Rc8 32.Rxf7 Rxc2 33.Rf6 Nf8 34.Ra8 Kg7 

2. =  (0.00): 2.Re3 Rad8 3.Rh3 h6 4.b4 Nc4 5.Bxg7 Kxg7 6.Qg4+ Kf6 7.Qh4+ Ke5 8.Qg3+ Kf6 


r4rk1/p1p2ppp/1pn1p3/n1q5/P5Q1/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R3R1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.49): 3.Kh1 g6 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd5 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 a6 20.Re2 Nc4 21.Ree7 Rf8 22.Rec7 b5 23.Kg1 Ne3 24.axb5 axb5 25.Rxb5 Rd8 26.Re5 Nf5 27.g4 Nd4 

2. =  (0.00): 3.Kf1 g6 4.Qh4 Rad8 5.Ba3 Qd4 6.Qxd4 Rxd4 7.Bxf8 Kxf8 8.Re4 Rb4 9.g4 Nb7 10.Rxb4 Nxb4 11.g5 a5 12.Ke2 Nc5 13.Rc1 Na2 14.Rf1 Nb4 15.Rb1 


r4rk1/p1p2p1p/1pn1p1p1/n1q5/P5Q1/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R3R2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.53): 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd5 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 h5 20.h3 Kg7 21.Rxa7 Rc6 22.Rd5 Nc4 23.Rdd7 Rf6 24.Rac7 Rf4 25.Rd3 Ne5 26.Re3 Kf6 

2. +-  (3.44): 4.Bf6 Rfd8 5.Qh3 Rxd3 6.Qxd3 Nb4 7.Qd2 Qd6 8.Qe2 c5 9.Rad1 Qf8 10.Qf3 Nac6 11.Rf1 Nd5 12.Bb2 Nd4 13.Bxd4 cxd4 14.Rxd4 f5 15.g4 Qc5 16.Rc4 Qe3 17.gxf5 Qxf3+ 18.Rxf3 gxf5 19.Rc6 Kf7 20.Rh3 Nf4 21.Rh4 Ng6 22.Rc7+ Kf6 23.Rhxh7 Rd8 24.Kg2 Rd2+ 25.Kf1 Ne5 26.Rh3 Kg5 27.Ke1 


r4rk1/p1p2p1p/1pn3p1/n1q1p3/P6Q/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R3R2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.69): 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd3 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 h5 20.h3 Kg7 21.Rxa7 Rc6 22.Kg1 Kh6 23.Ra6 Rc7 24.Ra8 Kg5 25.Re8 Rc5 26.Red8 Rc3 27.R8d6 Rc4 28.R6d4 Rc6 29.Rd5 f6 30.Rd6 Rc4 31.Rf2 f5 32.Re2 

2. +-  (1.92): 5.Be4 Rad8 6.Ba3 Nb4 7.Re2 Qd4 8.Qe1 c5 9.c3 Nd3 10.cxd4 Nxe1 11.Raxe1 exd4 12.Bd3 Nxb3 13.Re7 Na5 14.Bb5 Ra8 15.Ba6 Nc6 16.Rc7 Nb4 17.Bxb4 cxb4 18.Kg1Rad8 19.Rc4 d3 20.Rxb4 d2 21.Rd1 Rfe8 22.Kf2 Re5 23.Bb5 Rd6 24.Rb3 Re4 25.Re3 Rf4+ 26.Rf3 Re4 27.h3 a6 28.Bxa6 Rxa4 29.Bd3 Rad4 30.Rxd2 R4d5 31.Re3 Rd8 32.Ke2 Rg5 33.Be4 Rxd2+ 34.Kxd2 Re5 35.Bf3 Rxe3 


r4rk1/p1p2p1p/1pn3p1/n2qp3/P6Q/BP1B4/2P3PP/R3R2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

1. +-  (4.50): 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe8 11.Bb5 Qe6 12.Qxe5 Qxe5 13.Rxe5 Nd6 14.Re3 Ne6 15.Bd7 Ng5 16.Re7 Rd8 17.Bc6 Ne6 18.Rf1 Nf5 19.Rd7 Kf8 20.Re1 Rxd7 21.Bxd7 Nfd4 22.c3 Ke7 23.Bxe6 Nxe6 24.g4 Kf6 25.Kg2 Nf4+ 26.Kf3 Nd5 27.Rc1 a5 28.Ke4 Ke6 29.bxa5 bxa5 30.Kd4 Nb6 

2. +-  (4.05): 6.Bxf8 Rxf8 7.b4 Nb7 8.Rad1 Qa2 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Qxe5 Nd6 11.Ra1 Qe6 12.Qc3 Qd7 13.Be2 Ne4 14.Qe3 Nd6 15.Bf3 Nf5 16.Qe5 Ne6 17.c3 Re8 18.Qf6 Qe7 19.Qxe7 Rxe7 20.a5 Kf8 21.Bc6 h5 22.a6 h4 23.Re5 Nf4 24.Rxe7 Nxe7 25.Bf3 Nf5 26.Rd1 Nd6 27.Kg1 Ne6 28.Bc6 Ke7
I hope it's what you meant regards
This is a important study for me, one of the reasons is, as you can see, it's so playable.
The main line, for me, is 1.d5 exd5 2.b4 and so on.
But according to engines, I'm afraid that 1.c3 or 1.Qd2(or others) might break the uniqueness of the solution.
Could you do some deeper anaysis?
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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: The uniqueness problem

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:57 am The main line, for me, is 1.d5 exd5 2.b4 and so on.
But according to engines, I'm afraid that 1.c3 or 1.Qd2(or others) might break the uniqueness of the solution.
Could you do some deeper anaysis?
As for 1...exd5, I'd give it a ?! at least, after this one move it yet seems to be lost even faster than after 1...Qxd5 and ff as in previous posting.

Code: Select all

1.d5 exd5(?!):

r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn5/n2p4/P7/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

2.b4 f5 3.bxa5 Nxa5 4.Qf3 Nc4 5.Bxc4 dxc4 6.Rad1 Qf7 7.Rd5 Rad8 8.Rxd8 Rxd8 9.Re5 Qd7 10.Qc3 Qd1+ 11.Re1 Qd7 12.Qxc4+ Qf7 13.Qf4 h6 14.h3 Kh7 15.Re5 Rf8 16.c4 c6 17.Qg3 f4 18.Qd3+ Qg6 19.Re7 Rg8 20.Qxg6+ Kxg6 21.Kf2 Kf5 22.Re5+ Kg6 23.Bc3 Rd8 24.Ke2 Rf8 25.Re6+ Kf5 26.Re7 Rd8 27.Bxg7 Rg8 28.Rf7+ Ke4 29.Rxa7 c5 30.Re7+ Kf5 31.Kf3 Rd8 
  +-  (6.23)   Depth: 41/66   00:08:35  17259MN


And after 1...Qxd5:

r4rk1/p1p2ppp/1pn1p3/n2q4/P7/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

2.Qg4 Qc5+ 3.Kh1 g6 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd5 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 Rc4 20.Rxa7 Nc6 21.Ra6 Nd4 22.Kg1 Kg7 23.c3 Ne6 24.Ra7 Rxc3 25.Rdd7 Rc1+ 26.Kf2 Rc2+ 27.Ke3 Kf6 28.Rxf7+ Ke5 29.a5 Rxg2 30.axb6 Rb2 31.b7 Rb3+ 32.Kd2 Nc5 33.Rxh7 Kd4 34.Ke2 Ke4 35.Kf2 Ke5 36.Rc7 Kd6 37.Rg7 Rb2+ 38.Kf3 Rb3+ 39.Kg2 
  +-  (4.55)   Depth: 45/77   00:05:52  10984MN
As for deeper analysis of alternatives to 1.d5!, that's difficult. Unforced lines so soon in the game at once explode as for their trees of variants. As for my personal pov. I'd say Black would have a hard game but could maybe yet hold it, there's too much work for me with lines up to endgame to be regarded at the moment in positions like 1.c3, 1.Qd2, 1.Re3... If other things with my best hardware are done I'll maybe could come back to it, but to what outcome?

1.d5! to me is a single best move anyhow, the expression single one "game changer" isn't easy to be proved here, if you define it in its most narrow meaning, but missing it (d5) would change the game anyhow yet too in any more common meaning, wouldn't it?
So what regards
Peter.
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Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: The uniqueness problem

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:46 am
Hobacle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:57 am The main line, for me, is 1.d5 exd5 2.b4 and so on.
But according to engines, I'm afraid that 1.c3 or 1.Qd2(or others) might break the uniqueness of the solution.
Could you do some deeper anaysis?
As for 1...exd5, I'd give it a ?! at least, after this one move it yet seems to be lost even faster than after 1...Qxd5 and ff as in previous posting.

Code: Select all

1.d5 exd5(?!):

r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn5/n2p4/P7/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

2.b4 f5 3.bxa5 Nxa5 4.Qf3 Nc4 5.Bxc4 dxc4 6.Rad1 Qf7 7.Rd5 Rad8 8.Rxd8 Rxd8 9.Re5 Qd7 10.Qc3 Qd1+ 11.Re1 Qd7 12.Qxc4+ Qf7 13.Qf4 h6 14.h3 Kh7 15.Re5 Rf8 16.c4 c6 17.Qg3 f4 18.Qd3+ Qg6 19.Re7 Rg8 20.Qxg6+ Kxg6 21.Kf2 Kf5 22.Re5+ Kg6 23.Bc3 Rd8 24.Ke2 Rf8 25.Re6+ Kf5 26.Re7 Rd8 27.Bxg7 Rg8 28.Rf7+ Ke4 29.Rxa7 c5 30.Re7+ Kf5 31.Kf3 Rd8 
  +-  (6.23)   Depth: 41/66   00:08:35  17259MN


And after 1...Qxd5:

r4rk1/p1p2ppp/1pn1p3/n2q4/P7/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 070921:

2.Qg4 Qc5+ 3.Kh1 g6 4.Qh4 e5 5.Ba3 Qd5 6.Rad1 Qe6 7.Bxf8 Rxf8 8.b4 Nb7 9.Qe4 Ncd8 10.Bc4 Qe7 11.Bd5 c6 12.Bxc6 Nd6 13.Qd5 Nxc6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Nxb4 16.Rxe5 Rc8 17.Re7 Nc6 18.Rb7 Ne5 19.Rd2 Rc4 20.Rxa7 Nc6 21.Ra6 Nd4 22.Kg1 Kg7 23.c3 Ne6 24.Ra7 Rxc3 25.Rdd7 Rc1+ 26.Kf2 Rc2+ 27.Ke3 Kf6 28.Rxf7+ Ke5 29.a5 Rxg2 30.axb6 Rb2 31.b7 Rb3+ 32.Kd2 Nc5 33.Rxh7 Kd4 34.Ke2 Ke4 35.Kf2 Ke5 36.Rc7 Kd6 37.Rg7 Rb2+ 38.Kf3 Rb3+ 39.Kg2 
  +-  (4.55)   Depth: 45/77   00:05:52  10984MN
As for deeper analysis of alternatives to 1.d5!, that's difficult. Unforced lines so soon in the game soon explode as for their trees of variants. As for my personal pov. I'd say Black would have a hard game but could maybe yet hold it, there's too much work for me with lines up to endgame to be regarded at the moment in positions like 1.c3, 1.Qd2, 1.Re3... If other things with my best hardware are done I'll maybe could come back to it, but to what outcome?

1.d5! to me is a single best move anyhow, the expression single one "game changer" isn't easy to be proved here, if you define it in its most narrow meaning, but missing it (d5) would change the game anyhow yet too in any more common meaning, wouldn't it?
So what regards
I just want to make sure 1.d5 is the unique winning move, because I don't think the standard for playable compositions can be loosen. In most cases a successful composition should have no duals at least in the first several moves. In your line, 1.Qd2 even gets a score >1, that's very dangerous.
Or maybe I should change something, such as moving the h2 pawn to h3?

The theme of this composition is the sacrifice of both bishops after 1.d5 exd5 2.b4 Nxb4: 3.Bxh7+ Kxh7 4.Qh5+ Kg8 5.Bxg7. So 1...exd5 is the most important variation.
Top
peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: The uniqueness problem

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:14 am I just want to make sure 1.d5 is the unique winning move
Just did let SF and SugaR let play out two games after 1.Qd2(?) and aftet 1.c3(?) with 16 cores and 75'+15", both ended drawn:

[pgn][Event "AMD, Lang 75m+15s"]
[Site "DESKTOP-9QB5AU4"]
[Date "2021.09.11"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish 070921"]
[Black "SugaR AI 2.40 avx2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "0.74;0.54"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[TimeControl "4500+15"]

{AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16-Core Processor 3400 MHz W=58.5 plies;
19 941kN/s; 676 918 546 TBAs B=57.5 plies; 23 233kN/s} 1. Qd2 (1. c3 Ne7 {0.
54/38 91} 2. Qc2 {0.74/36 128} Ng6 {0.87/43 233} 3. c4 {1.02/42 115} Rad8 {0.
84/43 61} 4. Rad1 {0.98/40 48} Rfe8 {0.73/40 1} 5. Qc3 {0.91/44 219} Nf4 {0.57/
45 45 (e5)} 6. Be4 {0.85/43 80} e5 {0.59/46 0} 7. Qc2 {0.74/44 119} Qg4 {0.93/
46 2} 8. Bxh7+ {0.89/43 184} Kf8 {0.75/51 0} 9. Ba3+ {0.90/47 87} c5 {0.63/52
37} 10. Bf5 {0.69/49 140} Qh5 {0.63/52 6} 11. dxc5 {0.58/50 70} Rxd1 {0.60/53
106} 12. Rxd1 {0.57/50 45} Kg8 {0.60/51 29} 13. Bd7 {0.57/54 49} Rd8 {0.62/53
88} 14. Bg4 {0.56/51 236} Qg5 {0.77/55 0} 15. cxb6 {0.48/53 453} Rxd1+ {0.60/
53 22 (axb6)} 16. Qxd1 {0.45/47 64} axb6 {0.58/51 128} 17. Bf3 {0.45/51 0} Ne6
{0.58/54 92} 18. Bc1 {0.45/53 10} Qe7 {0.57/57 70} 19. Bd5 {0.45/55 0} Qb4 {0.
57/59 110} 20. Bd2 {0.45/55 0} Qc5+ {0.57/57 83} 21. Kh1 {0.45/53 0} Qd4 {0.58/
58 85} 22. Qe1 {0.37/51 24} Qd3 {0.45/48 57} 23. h3 {0.37/50 46} Nxb3 {0.28/52
36} 24. Bb4 {0.28/56 191 (Le3)} Na5 {0.20/57 93 (Sbd4)} 25. Bxe6 {0.19/51 81}
fxe6 {0.20/56 7} 26. c5 {0.27/50 78} Nc4 {0.20/59 31} 27. Kh2 {0.19/54 42} e4 {
0.19/62 81} 28. c6 {0.20/55 2} Qd5 {0.20/63 133} 29. c7 {0.18/59 0} Qc6 {0.21/
63 169} 30. Qg3 {0.18/64 0} e5 {0.21/67 116} 31. Qh4 {0.00/53 0 (Dg4)} Qxc7 {
0.21/68 408} 32. Qxe4 {0.00/64 0} Kh8 {0.21/67 91 (Sb2)} 33. Qa8+ {0.27/62 100}
Kh7 {0.21/69 120} 34. Qd5 {0.19/62 0} Nb2 {0.21/70 314} 35. a5 {0.19/65 0} bxa5
{0.21/71 80} 36. Bxa5 {0.11/60 5} Qc4 {0.20/70 293 (Dc1)} 37. Qxe5 {0.11/65 77}
Nd3 {0.20/72 3} 38. Qg5 {0.11/227 82 (Dc7)} Nc5 {0.20/53 86} 39. Bc7 {0.11/62
7 (Le1)} Ne6 {0.20/61 60} 40. Qf5+ {0.11/62 23 (Dh5+)} Kg8 {0.20/59 73} 41. Bd6
{0.11/64 12} Kh8 {0.20/61 151 (Dc8)} 42. Qg6 {0.11/63 90 (Lg3)} Kg8 {0.20/54
79 (Dc8)} 43. Qe8+ {0.11/66 73} Kh7 {0.20/53 0} 44. Qf7 {0.11/66 152 (Dh5+)}
Qd5 {0.13/56 55} 45. Bg3 {0.11/61 33} Kh8 {0.12/54 30} 46. Bb8 {0.11/63 40
(Dg6)} Kh7 {0.12/59 54 (Db5)} 47. Bg3 {0.02/56 105 (Da7)} Qe4 {0.12/65 193
(Kh6)} 48. Qh5+ {0.10/61 70} Kg8 {0.12/65 0} 49. Qe8+ {0.10/61 77} Kh7 {0.12/
65 22} 50. Qh5+ {0.10/61 52 (Db8)} Kg8 {0.12/39 1} 51. Qe5 {0.10/61 77 (De8+)}
Qg6 {0.12/50 89} 52. Qd5 {0.10/59 220} Kh7 {0.12/62 0 (Df7)} 53. Bd6 {0.10/60
73 (Df3)} Kg8 {0.12/67 62 (Df7)} 54. Bb4 {0.10/61 58 (Db3)} Kh7 {0.12/62 55}
55. Bc3 {0.09/57 250 (La3)} Kg8 {0.12/64 87 (Df7)} 56. Ba1 {0.09/54 77 (Dc4)}
Kh8 {0.12/61 47 (Kh7)} 57. Bb2 {0.09/58 56} Kh7 {0.12/65 76} 58. Bc3 {0.09/54
55 (Db3)} Kg8 {0.12/63 45 (Df7)} 59. Ba1 {0.09/58 89 (Dc4)} Qf7 {0.12/62 152
(Kh7)} 60. Qe4 {0.01/53 187 (Da8+)} Kh8 {0.12/62 45 (Sc5)} 61. Bc3 {0.01/55 95}
Kg8 {0.12/59 0} 62. Be1 {0.01/54 77 (Db4)} Nf8 {0.12/62 40 (Dd7)} 63. Bc3 {0.
01/53 78 (Da8)} Nd7 {0.12/58 41 (Se6)} 64. Qa8+ {0.01/49 81 (Kg1)} Kh7 {0.12/
61 40 (Sf8)} 65. Qa1 {0.01/47 59 (De4+)} Qf4+ {0.12/58 38 (Sf6)} 66. Kh1 {0.00/
49 48 (Kg1)} Qf7 {0.12/51 37 (Sf6)} 67. Qb1+ {0.00/48 38 (De1)} Kg8 {0.12/55
98 (Kh8)} 68. Kg1 {0.00/60 60 (De4)} Kh8 {0.12/51 74 (Sf6)} 69. Qe1 {0.00/61
43 (De4)} Kg8 {0.11/53 37 (Sf6)} 70. Kh2 {0.00/59 41 (Dg3)} Qf4+ {0.11/52 54
(Sf6)} 71. Qg3 {0.00/64 45} Qf7 {0.11/50 0} 72. h4 {0.00/60 201 (Dc7)} Nf6 {0.
00/60 79 (De7)} 73. Qb8+ {0.00/59 15 (Df4)} Kh7 {0.00/66 45 (Se8)} 74. Qf4 {0.
00/62 9} Qe6 {0.00/61 23} 75. Bxf6 {0.00/65 0} gxf6 {0.00/65 34} 76. Kg3 {0.00/
72 0} f5 {0.00/68 109 (De1+)} 77. h5 {0.00/84 20 (Dg5) Remis angenommen}) 1...
Nxd4 {1.00/43 103} 2. Rad1 {0.78/46 98} c5 {0.73/45 30 (Tad8)} 3. c3 {0.75/42
79} Naxb3 {0.68/48 0} 4. Qf4 {0.80/48 188} Qxa4 {0.70/50 0} 5. cxd4 {0.83/47 76
} Nxd4 {0.60/49 5} 6. Qe4 {0.70/49 114} f5 {0.51/50 0} 7. Qe5 {0.65/49 111} Rf6
{0.45/47 0} 8. Qd6 {0.58/48 67} Rg6 {0.55/49 6} 9. Kh1 {0.57/46 60} Qc6 {0.60/
50 22} 10. Qxc6 {0.56/49 97} Nxc6 {0.58/53 0} 11. Bb5 {0.56/49 79} Nd4 {0.57/
53 6} 12. Bxd4 {0.56/52 109} cxd4 {0.57/55 0} 13. Rxd4 {0.56/52 72} Kf8 {0.57/
51 30 (Tf6)} 14. Kg1 {0.55/43 71} Rf6 {0.56/52 21 (a6)} 15. Rh4 {0.55/52 87} a6
{0.48/53 87} 16. Ra1 {0.55/50 0} a5 {0.48/51 94} 17. Rxh7 {0.55/53 0} Rh6 {0.
47/56 88} 18. Rxh6 {0.54/53 0} gxh6 {0.39/58 286} 19. Bc4 {0.46/55 0} Kf7 {0.
38/57 86 (a4)} 20. Re1 {0.46/57 96 (Tb1)} Re8 {0.38/60 175} 21. Rb1 {0.41/56 0}
Rc8 {0.38/63 95} 22. Be2 {0.37/53 0 (Ld3)} Rb8 {0.37/61 170} 23. Bb5 {0.37/57 0
} Kf6 {0.37/58 84} 24. Kf2 {0.37/53 27} Rd8 {0.29/58 627} 25. Be2 {0.37/62 0
(Tb2)} Rb8 {0.21/60 87} 26. Bb5 {0.29/46 1} Rd8 {0.21/59 93} 27. Ke3 {0.29/53
0 (Tb2)} Kg5 {0.12/54 315} 28. Bc4 {0.29/59 0} Rc8 {0.12/56 67 (Td6)} 29. h4+ {
0.21/52 113} Kf6 {0.12/61 0} 30. Bf1 {0.21/52 106} Rc6 {0.12/57 11} 31. Bb5 {
0.21/51 79} Rc3+ {0.04/56 182 (Tc2)} 32. Kf2 {0.20/56 125} Rc2+ {0.03/59 84}
33. Kf3 {0.04/58 113 (Le2)} Rc3+ {0.00/55 86 (Td2)} 34. Kf2 {0.00/59 125} Rc2+
{0.00/58 0} 35. Be2 {0.00/62 99 (Kg1)} Rc6 {0.00/58 70 (a4)} 36. g3 {0.00/49
89 (Tb3)} Ke5 {0.00/58 75} 37. Rb5+ {0.00/50 7 (Lb5)} Kd4 {0.00/52 62 (Kd6)}
38. Rb1 {0.00/58 88 Remis angenommen 1/2-1/2 (38) Stockfish 070921-SugaR AI 2.
40 avx2 DESKTOP-9QB5AU4 2021 [0.78;1.00]} 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
Peter.
Top
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: The uniqueness problem

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:41 pm
Hobacle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:14 am I just want to make sure 1.d5 is the unique winning move
Just did let SF and SugaR let play out two games after 1.Qd2(?) and aftet 1.c3(?) with 16 cores and 75'+15", both ended drawn:

[pgn][Event "AMD, Lang 75m+15s"]
[Site "DESKTOP-9QB5AU4"]
[Date "2021.09.11"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish 070921"]
[Black "SugaR AI 2.40 avx2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "0.74;0.54"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[TimeControl "4500+15"]

{AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16-Core Processor 3400 MHz W=58.5 plies;
19 941kN/s; 676 918 546 TBAs B=57.5 plies; 23 233kN/s} 1. Qd2 (1. c3 Ne7 {0.
54/38 91} 2. Qc2 {0.74/36 128} Ng6 {0.87/43 233} 3. c4 {1.02/42 115} Rad8 {0.
84/43 61} 4. Rad1 {0.98/40 48} Rfe8 {0.73/40 1} 5. Qc3 {0.91/44 219} Nf4 {0.57/
45 45 (e5)} 6. Be4 {0.85/43 80} e5 {0.59/46 0} 7. Qc2 {0.74/44 119} Qg4 {0.93/
46 2} 8. Bxh7+ {0.89/43 184} Kf8 {0.75/51 0} 9. Ba3+ {0.90/47 87} c5 {0.63/52
37} 10. Bf5 {0.69/49 140} Qh5 {0.63/52 6} 11. dxc5 {0.58/50 70} Rxd1 {0.60/53
106} 12. Rxd1 {0.57/50 45} Kg8 {0.60/51 29} 13. Bd7 {0.57/54 49} Rd8 {0.62/53
88} 14. Bg4 {0.56/51 236} Qg5 {0.77/55 0} 15. cxb6 {0.48/53 453} Rxd1+ {0.60/
53 22 (axb6)} 16. Qxd1 {0.45/47 64} axb6 {0.58/51 128} 17. Bf3 {0.45/51 0} Ne6
{0.58/54 92} 18. Bc1 {0.45/53 10} Qe7 {0.57/57 70} 19. Bd5 {0.45/55 0} Qb4 {0.
57/59 110} 20. Bd2 {0.45/55 0} Qc5+ {0.57/57 83} 21. Kh1 {0.45/53 0} Qd4 {0.58/
58 85} 22. Qe1 {0.37/51 24} Qd3 {0.45/48 57} 23. h3 {0.37/50 46} Nxb3 {0.28/52
36} 24. Bb4 {0.28/56 191 (Le3)} Na5 {0.20/57 93 (Sbd4)} 25. Bxe6 {0.19/51 81}
fxe6 {0.20/56 7} 26. c5 {0.27/50 78} Nc4 {0.20/59 31} 27. Kh2 {0.19/54 42} e4 {
0.19/62 81} 28. c6 {0.20/55 2} Qd5 {0.20/63 133} 29. c7 {0.18/59 0} Qc6 {0.21/
63 169} 30. Qg3 {0.18/64 0} e5 {0.21/67 116} 31. Qh4 {0.00/53 0 (Dg4)} Qxc7 {
0.21/68 408} 32. Qxe4 {0.00/64 0} Kh8 {0.21/67 91 (Sb2)} 33. Qa8+ {0.27/62 100}
Kh7 {0.21/69 120} 34. Qd5 {0.19/62 0} Nb2 {0.21/70 314} 35. a5 {0.19/65 0} bxa5
{0.21/71 80} 36. Bxa5 {0.11/60 5} Qc4 {0.20/70 293 (Dc1)} 37. Qxe5 {0.11/65 77}
Nd3 {0.20/72 3} 38. Qg5 {0.11/227 82 (Dc7)} Nc5 {0.20/53 86} 39. Bc7 {0.11/62
7 (Le1)} Ne6 {0.20/61 60} 40. Qf5+ {0.11/62 23 (Dh5+)} Kg8 {0.20/59 73} 41. Bd6
{0.11/64 12} Kh8 {0.20/61 151 (Dc8)} 42. Qg6 {0.11/63 90 (Lg3)} Kg8 {0.20/54
79 (Dc8)} 43. Qe8+ {0.11/66 73} Kh7 {0.20/53 0} 44. Qf7 {0.11/66 152 (Dh5+)}
Qd5 {0.13/56 55} 45. Bg3 {0.11/61 33} Kh8 {0.12/54 30} 46. Bb8 {0.11/63 40
(Dg6)} Kh7 {0.12/59 54 (Db5)} 47. Bg3 {0.02/56 105 (Da7)} Qe4 {0.12/65 193
(Kh6)} 48. Qh5+ {0.10/61 70} Kg8 {0.12/65 0} 49. Qe8+ {0.10/61 77} Kh7 {0.12/
65 22} 50. Qh5+ {0.10/61 52 (Db8)} Kg8 {0.12/39 1} 51. Qe5 {0.10/61 77 (De8+)}
Qg6 {0.12/50 89} 52. Qd5 {0.10/59 220} Kh7 {0.12/62 0 (Df7)} 53. Bd6 {0.10/60
73 (Df3)} Kg8 {0.12/67 62 (Df7)} 54. Bb4 {0.10/61 58 (Db3)} Kh7 {0.12/62 55}
55. Bc3 {0.09/57 250 (La3)} Kg8 {0.12/64 87 (Df7)} 56. Ba1 {0.09/54 77 (Dc4)}
Kh8 {0.12/61 47 (Kh7)} 57. Bb2 {0.09/58 56} Kh7 {0.12/65 76} 58. Bc3 {0.09/54
55 (Db3)} Kg8 {0.12/63 45 (Df7)} 59. Ba1 {0.09/58 89 (Dc4)} Qf7 {0.12/62 152
(Kh7)} 60. Qe4 {0.01/53 187 (Da8+)} Kh8 {0.12/62 45 (Sc5)} 61. Bc3 {0.01/55 95}
Kg8 {0.12/59 0} 62. Be1 {0.01/54 77 (Db4)} Nf8 {0.12/62 40 (Dd7)} 63. Bc3 {0.
01/53 78 (Da8)} Nd7 {0.12/58 41 (Se6)} 64. Qa8+ {0.01/49 81 (Kg1)} Kh7 {0.12/
61 40 (Sf8)} 65. Qa1 {0.01/47 59 (De4+)} Qf4+ {0.12/58 38 (Sf6)} 66. Kh1 {0.00/
49 48 (Kg1)} Qf7 {0.12/51 37 (Sf6)} 67. Qb1+ {0.00/48 38 (De1)} Kg8 {0.12/55
98 (Kh8)} 68. Kg1 {0.00/60 60 (De4)} Kh8 {0.12/51 74 (Sf6)} 69. Qe1 {0.00/61
43 (De4)} Kg8 {0.11/53 37 (Sf6)} 70. Kh2 {0.00/59 41 (Dg3)} Qf4+ {0.11/52 54
(Sf6)} 71. Qg3 {0.00/64 45} Qf7 {0.11/50 0} 72. h4 {0.00/60 201 (Dc7)} Nf6 {0.
00/60 79 (De7)} 73. Qb8+ {0.00/59 15 (Df4)} Kh7 {0.00/66 45 (Se8)} 74. Qf4 {0.
00/62 9} Qe6 {0.00/61 23} 75. Bxf6 {0.00/65 0} gxf6 {0.00/65 34} 76. Kg3 {0.00/
72 0} f5 {0.00/68 109 (De1+)} 77. h5 {0.00/84 20 (Dg5) Remis angenommen}) 1...
Nxd4 {1.00/43 103} 2. Rad1 {0.78/46 98} c5 {0.73/45 30 (Tad8)} 3. c3 {0.75/42
79} Naxb3 {0.68/48 0} 4. Qf4 {0.80/48 188} Qxa4 {0.70/50 0} 5. cxd4 {0.83/47 76
} Nxd4 {0.60/49 5} 6. Qe4 {0.70/49 114} f5 {0.51/50 0} 7. Qe5 {0.65/49 111} Rf6
{0.45/47 0} 8. Qd6 {0.58/48 67} Rg6 {0.55/49 6} 9. Kh1 {0.57/46 60} Qc6 {0.60/
50 22} 10. Qxc6 {0.56/49 97} Nxc6 {0.58/53 0} 11. Bb5 {0.56/49 79} Nd4 {0.57/
53 6} 12. Bxd4 {0.56/52 109} cxd4 {0.57/55 0} 13. Rxd4 {0.56/52 72} Kf8 {0.57/
51 30 (Tf6)} 14. Kg1 {0.55/43 71} Rf6 {0.56/52 21 (a6)} 15. Rh4 {0.55/52 87} a6
{0.48/53 87} 16. Ra1 {0.55/50 0} a5 {0.48/51 94} 17. Rxh7 {0.55/53 0} Rh6 {0.
47/56 88} 18. Rxh6 {0.54/53 0} gxh6 {0.39/58 286} 19. Bc4 {0.46/55 0} Kf7 {0.
38/57 86 (a4)} 20. Re1 {0.46/57 96 (Tb1)} Re8 {0.38/60 175} 21. Rb1 {0.41/56 0}
Rc8 {0.38/63 95} 22. Be2 {0.37/53 0 (Ld3)} Rb8 {0.37/61 170} 23. Bb5 {0.37/57 0
} Kf6 {0.37/58 84} 24. Kf2 {0.37/53 27} Rd8 {0.29/58 627} 25. Be2 {0.37/62 0
(Tb2)} Rb8 {0.21/60 87} 26. Bb5 {0.29/46 1} Rd8 {0.21/59 93} 27. Ke3 {0.29/53
0 (Tb2)} Kg5 {0.12/54 315} 28. Bc4 {0.29/59 0} Rc8 {0.12/56 67 (Td6)} 29. h4+ {
0.21/52 113} Kf6 {0.12/61 0} 30. Bf1 {0.21/52 106} Rc6 {0.12/57 11} 31. Bb5 {
0.21/51 79} Rc3+ {0.04/56 182 (Tc2)} 32. Kf2 {0.20/56 125} Rc2+ {0.03/59 84}
33. Kf3 {0.04/58 113 (Le2)} Rc3+ {0.00/55 86 (Td2)} 34. Kf2 {0.00/59 125} Rc2+
{0.00/58 0} 35. Be2 {0.00/62 99 (Kg1)} Rc6 {0.00/58 70 (a4)} 36. g3 {0.00/49
89 (Tb3)} Ke5 {0.00/58 75} 37. Rb5+ {0.00/50 7 (Lb5)} Kd4 {0.00/52 62 (Kd6)}
38. Rb1 {0.00/58 88 Remis angenommen 1/2-1/2 (38) Stockfish 070921-SugaR AI 2.
40 avx2 DESKTOP-9QB5AU4 2021 [0.78;1.00]} 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
Thanks for your help! In fact I've already prepared my plan B:

r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP2P1P/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

And two questionable versions:

r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B3P/1BP2P2/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1
r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B3P/1BP3P1/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1

But now I feel much more reassured. Thanks for your work!
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Brunetti
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:37 pm
Location: Milan, Italy
Full name: Alex Brunetti

Re: The uniqueness problem

Post by Brunetti »

Hobacle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:14 am The theme of this composition is the sacrifice of both bishops after 1.d5 exd5 2.b4 Nxb4: 3.Bxh7+ Kxh7 4.Qh5+ Kg8 5.Bxg7. So 1...exd5 is the most important variation.
Since Black can play a stronger move than ...exd5, are you sure you can set it as your principal variation?
Anyway, just move the King to h1 and you get your perfect double Bishop sacrifice and having ...exd5 stronger than ...Qxd5:

[fen]r4rk1/p1pq1ppp/1pn1p3/n7/P2P4/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR2K w - - 0 1[/fen]

Code: Select all

info depth 35 seldepth 50 multipv 1 score cp 469 nodes 443985710 nps 2354599 hashfull 995 tbhits 0 time 188561 pv d4d5 e
6d5 b3b4 a5b7 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 b2g7 g8g7 h5g5 g7h8 g5h4 h8g7 a1a3 d7f5 a3g3 f5g6 e1f1 g7g8 h4f6 a8e8 f6c6 b7d6 g3g6 f
7g6 f1f8 g8f8 h2h3 e8e1 h1h2 e1e4 c6c7 d6e8 c7a7 e4b4 a7d7 b4f4 d7d5 f4f6 d5e4 f6d6 e4e2 f8g7 e2e8 d6d2 e8e7 g7h6
info depth 35 seldepth 60 multipv 2 score cp 150 nodes 443985710 nps 2354599 hashfull 995 tbhits 0 time 188561 pv d1h5 f
7f5 d4d5 e6d5 g2g4 d7f7 h5h3 a8e8 e1f1 c6e7 g4f5 d5d4 f1f4 f7d5 h1g1 c7c5 a1f1 f8f6 b2c1 e8f8 f4h4 f6f5 f1f5 f8f5 h4h7 f
5f3 h7h8 g8f7 h3g4 f3d3 c2d3 a5c6 h8h7 e7f5 g1f2 c6e7 g4h5 f7e6 c1g5 d5b3 g5e7 b3a2 h5e2 a2e2 f2e2 e6e7 h7h8 e7d6 h8f8 f
5e7 f8f7 g7g6 f7f8 d6e6 e2f3 e7c6 h2h4 c6e7


[fen]r4rk1/p1p2ppp/1pn1p3/n2q4/P7/1P1B4/1BP3PP/R2QR2K w - - 0 1[/fen]

Code: Select all

info depth 35 seldepth 51 multipv 1 score cp 556 nodes 235593963 nps 2598166 hashfull 991 tbhits 0 time 90677 pv d1g4 e6
e5 b3b4 f7f5 g4h4 a8d8 b4a5 e5e4 d3e2 d8d6 a5b6 a7b6 h4g3 c6d4 a1d1 d5c5 b2a3 c5c2 d1c1 d4e2 g3d6 c7d6 c1c2 e2d4 c2c7 f8
e8 a3d6 d4e6 c7d7 e8a8 e1a1 h7h5 d7e7 e6d4 d6f4 e4e3 e7e3 d4c2 a1a3 c2e3 f4e3
Alex
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Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: The uniqueness problem

Post by Hobacle »

Brunetti wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:06 am
Hobacle wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:14 am The theme of this composition is the sacrifice of both bishops after 1.d5 exd5 2.b4 Nxb4: 3.Bxh7+ Kxh7 4.Qh5+ Kg8 5.Bxg7. So 1...exd5 is the most important variation.
Since Black can play a stronger move than ...exd5, are you sure you can set it as your principal variation?
Anyway, just move the King to h1 and you get your perfect double Bishop sacrifice and having ...exd5 stronger than ...Qxd5:
Of course what you've said is reasonable, but for me, the uniqueness of the first move(s) is the most important thing here. I've considered your version before, but on my computer it seemed 1.Qh5 also wins. The movement of WK made it safer, so White can get some extra chances. Whether 1...exd5 is the best reply to 1.d5 is the next thing, if we can't find a non-dual position that 1...exd5 is the strongest reply to 1.d5 in it, I'll only regret it.



Once I was playing with myself, suddenly I saw something. A brilliant move! After making a few modifications, the position was:

[fen]r2qr1k1/1bp2ppp/1pn5/2bpP3/p7/3B1N2/PPP2PPP/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 1[/fen]
1.Bxh7+! Kxh7 2.Ng5+ Kg8 3.Qh5 Qd7 4.Qh7+ Kf8 5.Nf3!!

This was quite unexpected. I thought it could be a great puzzle, until I analysised it with engines. They told me 1.c3 also wins.
So when I posted it as a puzzle in another forum, I had to said: "Is 1.Bxh7+ winning here? If not, what should White play?"
This was really a pity.
I've had something like this many times, I don't want to see it happens any more.
I want to compose a brilliant playable composition with unique first moves.
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