Carlsen vs. CCRL 2850 engines in Rapid?

[lkaufman]

That would be great, but who would sponsor it? Those engines are almost all free, they have no commercial incentive to sponsor. Of course if FIDE (or national organization) wanted to rate the events for the humans, the engines would count based on their performance rating in the event, not on the CCRL ratings which are way below "parity" with FIDE. Based on my analysis of the data supplied here recently, I conclude that the CCRL Rapid ratings of engines in the human master/gm range are roughly an indication of the ratings they would get if they played (on the reference hardware) at Rapid (15' + 10") time control, no Ponder, while the human played at a standard classical time control like two hours plus 30" increment.

Is there some way to somehow correlate the CCRL ratings to the FIDE list, using the old games from the late 90's to mid-2000?

I remember that someone once posted a formula after some analysis:

FIDE = CCRL * 0.7 + 840

This would make 2800 FIDE equal to 2800 CCRL. I assume that this is not a coincidence. This formula would put the current version of my own engine, which is CCRL 1865, at 2145. If this is even roughly in the ballpark, it's no wonder I don't stand a chance at winning against it, and only drawing occasionally. It's rated at least 145 points higher than I am (ever was, more correctly, in my teens; nowadays I don't play tournaments so I don't have a rating).

I'd love to have a CCRL list that would be calibrated to the FIDE list by Human - Engine tournaments. In the 80's and 90's we had the Aegon tournaments, but only the very strongest dedicated computers where somewhat interesting.

The formula is clearly wrong now (maybe was correct on ancient hardware), as it is obvious from a study of past results that a 2800 CCRL engine needs only 20 year old hardware to perform at that level vs. humans. I'm not an expert on hardware, but from what I've read I think that the reference i7 computer used by CCRL is roughly four times faster than ones on which humans earned comparable ratings around 20 years ago (comparing equal number of cores). Based on your own games with your engine, assuming CCRL comparable hardware, what do you think it should be rated? My guess is that the 0.7 figure is too low, maybe CCRL*0.75 + 840 would be about right for estimating standard time control human FIDE rating equivalents.

[Chessqueen]

My Question is How many pawns Odds can Komodo Dragon2 give Carlsen if he ever accept a challenge, would you say 2 pawns at 15'+10". Based on this result against a 2420 rated player it could be a hard challenge for Komodo Dragon2. First game ended in a draw Jose Munoz Santana won $25.00. I will send him $15.00 via Western Union, if he does NOT win or draw today just for spending 1 hour on Skype, and doing his very best against this Beast. https://ratings.fide.com/profile/6400361/statistics. I decided to continue using my intel i7 3.40 GHz with No MCTS, depth = 22, 4 cores or 4 threads, and Contempt = 125 Ponder on, So far Dragon is taking the lead I will post the complete game very soon. Komodo Rules! the odds giving among top engines.

Note: Jose Munoz spoke with amazement about Komodo Dragon2 he said that he will definitively purchase Dragon2 in the next few days, before this match he never heard about Komodo Dragon2, now he will be using Dragon2 for training, He told me that one of his best game ever was this one against a player rated 2461 https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1592881

[pgn][Event "Via Skype"]
[Date "2021.09.10"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Dragon-2-64bit-avx2"]
[Black "Jose Munoz Santana"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2420"]
[Time "10:05:38"]
[WhiteElo "2600"]
[TimeControl "1800+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "42"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]


1. d4 d5 2. e3 g6 3. Be2 Nf6 4. c4 dxc4 5. Bxc4 Bg7 6. Nc3 O-O 7. O-O Nc6
8. a3 Bf5 9. f3 Ne8 10. Ba2 Nd6 11. d5 Na5 12. e4 Bd7 13. Qe1 c5 14. e5 Nf5
15. Bf4 Qb6 16. Rf2 Nb3 17. Rd1 Nbd4 18. Kh1 Rad8 19. h3 Rfe8 20. Rc1 Nb3
21. Rd1 Rc8 22. g4 Nfd4 23. Kg2 Rf8 24. Qe3 Rcd8 25. Bh6 Rfe8 26. h4 Bxh6
27. Qxh6 Kh8 28. d6 e6 29. h5 Rg8 30. Bxb3 Nxb3 31. Ne4 gxh5 32. Nf6 Rg7
33. Rh1 Bb5 34. Qxh5 Bd3 35. Kg3 Nd4 36. Rfh2 Ne2+ 37. Rxe2 Rdg8 38. Reh2
{Black resigns} *[/pgn]

[lkaufman]

My Question is How many pawns Odds can Komodo Dragon2 give Carlsen if he ever accept a challenge, would you say 2 pawns at 15'+10". Based on this result against a 2420 rated player it could be a hard challenge for Komodo Dragon2. First game ended in a draw Jose Munoz Santana won $25.00. I will send him $15.00 via Western Union, if he does NOT win or draw today just for spending 1 hour on Skype, and doing his very best against this Beast. https://ratings.fide.com/profile/6400361/statistics. I decided to continue using my intel i7 3.40 GHz with No MCTS, depth = 22, 4 cores or 4 threads, and Contempt = 125 Ponder on, So far Dragon is taking the lead I will post the complete game very soon. Komodo Rules! the odds giving among top engines.

Note: Jose Munoz spoke with amazement about Komodo Dragon2 he said that he will definitively purchase Dragon2 in the next few days, before this match he never heard about Komodo Dragon2, now he will be using Dragon2 for training, He told me that one of his best game ever was this one against a player rated 2461 https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1592881

[pgn][Event "Via Skype"]
[Date "2021.09.10"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Dragon-2-64bit-avx2"]
[Black "Jose Munoz Santana"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2420"]
[Time "10:05:38"]
[WhiteElo "2600"]
[TimeControl "1800+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "42"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]


1. d4 d5 2. e3 g6 3. Be2 Nf6 4. c4 dxc4 5. Bxc4 Bg7 6. Nc3 O-O 7. O-O Nc6
8. a3 Bf5 9. f3 Ne8 10. Ba2 Nd6 11. d5 Na5 12. e4 Bd7 13. Qe1 c5 14. e5 Nf5
15. Bf4 Qb6 16. Rf2 Nb3 17. Rd1 Nbd4 18. Kh1 Rad8 19. h3 Rfe8 20. Rc1 Nb3
21. Rd1 Rc8 22. g4 Nfd4 23. Kg2 Rf8 24. Qe3 Rcd8 25. Bh6 Rfe8 26. h4 Bxh6
27. Qxh6 Kh8 28. d6 e6 29. h5 Rg8 30. Bxb3 Nxb3 31. Ne4 gxh5 32. Nf6 Rg7
33. Rh1 Bb5 34. Qxh5 Bd3 35. Kg3 Nd4 36. Rfh2 Ne2+ 37. Rxe2 Rdg8 38. Reh2
{Black resigns} *[/pgn]

Two Black pawns (called "two pawns and move") should be fair vs. Carlsen at 15' + 10" rapid, assuming we rotate between b7 + f7, c7 + f7, b7 + g7, and c7 + g7. But this won't happen, we have to settle for other players in the top ten as opponents. Now that Dominguez has won the St. Louis FRC event, perhaps he might be willing to play a knight odds FRC Rapid match with K Dragon if we can make a reasonable offer?

[Uri Blass]

How would Magnus Carlsen (FIDE Classical and Rapid ratings both close to 2850) perform in a serious Rapid (15' + 10") match with engines rated around 2850 on the CCRL Rapid (40/15) rating list (assuming they used a good but varied modern opening book), and ran on the reference i7 computer used by that list? Some example engines running on just one thread include Deep Shredder 11, Stockfish 1.4 (not 14!), Minic 1.39, Fritz 11, Toga II 3.0, Naum 3, Gaviota 1.0, and Arasan 18.0. I realize that there is probably no data on this exactly, opinions must be based on results of engines against other top players with a bit of extrapolation. We know that the rating lists spread out the ratings relative to human scale, but I'm trying to determine at least whether this list is accurate relative to FIDE ratings of the best human player. What do you think?

Personally, I think it would be great if we could have a bunch some classical and rapid tournaments between engines in the 2650 - 2850 range, and grandmasters in the same range. It would be even better to have tournaments across the range starting at 1500 ELO. That would give us the opportunity to calibrate CCRL to the FIDE list, and give the engines "real" FIDE ratings.

The ratings could be unrated for the players, because it is not yet known if a 2700 CCRL engine is acutally a good match for a 2700 FIDE grandmaster.

That would be great, but who would sponsor it? Those engines are almost all free, they have no commercial incentive to sponsor. Of course if FIDE (or national organization) wanted to rate the events for the humans, the engines would count based on their performance rating in the event, not on the CCRL ratings which are way below "parity" with FIDE. Based on my analysis of the data supplied here recently, I conclude that the CCRL Rapid ratings of engines in the human master/gm range are roughly an indication of the ratings they would get if they played (on the reference hardware) at Rapid (15' + 10") time control, no Ponder, while the human played at a standard classical time control like two hours plus 30" increment.

I believe that there is a bigger probability to find sponsors for players with clearly lower rating than 2700(of course against lower rating of CCRL engines).