What used to be a constructive place to discuss about the latest chess engines and techniques to be used in computer chess has devolved into a toxic dumpster for people arguing over cloning, GPL violations, uniqueness, free speech on the CTF, ip banning, moderators behaviour, etc. I'm as guilty of participating in this as the rest of you are, but nothing ever gets anywhere with these endless arguments apart from making people hate each other. So I'm done.
Good bye.
Its not endless.
It needs to be discussed. And then a new beginning can evolve.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
AlexChess wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:54 pm
I like Fischerov very much since 0.92 release. Often it performs better than Stockfish. But it seems that now authors cannot share Fisherov 98d anymore, due to the Stockfish Team request. I hope that they will show that is only inspired by SF.
I kindly ask to the authors to release the source code as required by GPLv3, and I ask to do the the same to Raubfisch, AI-15, KillFish, Eman, Zeus, Spider, As-130.2 authors. Please, we need that you share your knowledge to improve Stockfish competitors and SF itself.
I'll continue to privately test all them, never sharing the binaries, only for statistical purposes.
With all This Debate and Controversy It Hit Me...."Stockfish is Not Happy Because These Clones Must Test Well Against Stockfish, Sometimes Outperforming Stockfish in The Engine Tests...Now This is Not A New Development, but one I've seen over many years..Stockfish Always Tested a bit worse than Some Of These Clones...ex SugaR..Brainlearn ..Brainfish...Asmfish...Cfish...Eman..McBrain..McCain....Raubfisch..FatFritz 2...CiChess.. CorChess Etc..Some of it was Due to settings....Some to Updates...Only Stockfish Development (Abrok.eu) was able to keep pace for the most part. Stockfish wants their code because they want to know why some of these "Clones" test so well against the Original...
AlexChess wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:54 pm
I like Fischerov very much since 0.92 release. Often it performs better than Stockfish. But it seems that now authors cannot share Fisherov 98d anymore, due to the Stockfish Team request. :( I hope that they will show that is only inspired by SF.
I kindly ask to the authors to release the source code as required by GPLv3, and I ask to do the the same to Raubfisch, AI-15, KillFish, Eman, Zeus, Spider, As-130.2 authors. Please, we need that you share your knowledge to improve Stockfish competitors and SF itself.
I'll continue to privately test all them, never sharing the binaries, only for statistical purposes.
With all This Debate and Controversy It Hit Me...."Stockfish is Not Happy Because These Clones Must Test Well Against Stockfish, Sometimes Outperforming Stockfish in The Engine Tests...Now This is Not A New Development, but one I've seen over many years..Stockfish Always Tested a bit worse than Some Of These Clones...ex SugaR..Brainlearn ..Brainfish...Asmfish...Cfish...Eman..McBrain..McCain....Raubfisch..FatFritz 2...CiChess.. CorChess Etc..Some of it was Due to settings....Some to Updates...Only Stockfish Development (Abrok.eu) was able to keep pace for the most part. Stockfish wants their code because they want to know why some of these "Clones" test so well against the Original... :) :wink:
Idiots like you and cheesequeen have ruined this forum over the last years - bravo
My feeling is that GPL may not be the best license in chess engine. The best motivation for anyone to do serious works is going commercial. The GPL model requiring open source would have worked in many other fields such as lichess. In those fields, it's the data or user support that matters, making the source code open does not stop commercial development. R, RStudio etc are open source, but it will take at least a company-wide effort, sometimes like a million of dollars to take advantage of the source code commercially.
Unfortunately, this model simply doesn't work in chess engine development, because there is no data here. Anybody can just grab a new commercial engine and sell it. Easy. The GPL license is explicitly discouraging commercial works, and therefore destroying the industry.
The arguments GPL is encouraging commercial will only work if the party has some form of competitive advantage away from the source code. GPL doesn't work in chess engine development. That's exactly why this forum is losing people; not enough new recruits because there is no commercial opportunity. The GPL license is not helping but destroying the chess engine field.
The GPL isn't discouraging commercial use. It's the companies that misunderstand it. Being open source under GPLv3 doesn't hinder your business in any way. If Stockfish went for MIT then we had no legal way of stopping them to use SF. We wouldn't have any way of countering their lies about FF2's strength. With the GPL it is possible to fight such cases. I would assume that less people would be willing to contribute to SF if it was MIT. Quite a lot of people do it in their free time and would prefer if companies don't get to use their code without any mentioning. ChessBase clearly shows why a GPL like license is needed. And there are more and more people joining the SF discord and we lately had some patches by new developers. I don't see how the GPL hinders computer chess.
I think people underestimate the amount of money you'd need to recreate a fishtest framework and maintain it. And that's not even including taxes and the labor you have to hire and pay. Competing with Stockfish may only be possible by already being a rich company or a growing open source community outside of Stockfish. OpenBench could be one of the competitors to SF.
ChickenLogic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:49 pm
The GPL isn't discouraging commercial use. It's the companies that misunderstand it. Being open source under GPLv3 doesn't hinder your business in any way. If Stockfish went for MIT then we had no legal way of stopping them to use SF. We wouldn't have any way of countering their lies about FF2's strength.
Mr. Additional Chicken Pylon,
It is ironic that you criticize companies for misunderstanding the GPLv3 yet misunderstand it so fundamentally yourself. There’s nothing in that license that prevents a company from making outlandish marketing claims. That is governed by a separate area of the law.
Fat Titz by Stockfish, the engine with the bodaciously big net. Remember: size matters. If you want to learn more about this engine just google for "Fat Titz".
ChickenLogic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:49 pm
The GPL isn't discouraging commercial use. It's the companies that misunderstand it. Being open source under GPLv3 doesn't hinder your business in any way. If Stockfish went for MIT then we had no legal way of stopping them to use SF. We wouldn't have any way of countering their lies about FF2's strength.
Mr. Additional Chicken Pylon,
It is ironic that you criticize companies for misunderstanding the GPLv3 yet misunderstand it so fundamentally yourself. There’s nothing in that license that prevents a company from making outlandish marketing claims. That is governed by a separate area of the law.
You always, miraculously, find a way to reinterpret text in a way that on first glance may make some people believe that you're right. This is not a sustainable way of having a discussion.
dangi12012 wrote:No one wants to touch anything you have posted. That proves you now have negative reputations since everyone knows already you are a forum troll.
Maybe you copied your stockfish commits from someone else too?
I will look into that.
ChickenLogic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:49 pm
The GPL isn't discouraging commercial use. It's the companies that misunderstand it. Being open source under GPLv3 doesn't hinder your business in any way. If Stockfish went for MIT then we had no legal way of stopping them to use SF. We wouldn't have any way of countering their lies about FF2's strength.
Mr. Additional Chicken Pylon,
It is ironic that you criticize companies for misunderstanding the GPLv3 yet misunderstand it so fundamentally yourself. There’s nothing in that license that prevents a company from making outlandish marketing claims. That is governed by a separate area of the law.
You always, miraculously, find a way to reinterpret text in a way that on first glance may make some people believe that you're right. This is not a sustainable way of having a discussion.
Have the courage of your convictions and make a point backed by something more than hand waving. You and your Greek chorus of SF discordites seems to have hit upon the “misunderstanding defense.” If you don’t want to be misinterpreted, then express yourself more clearly.
Fat Titz by Stockfish, the engine with the bodaciously big net. Remember: size matters. If you want to learn more about this engine just google for "Fat Titz".
I hope that they will show that is only inspired by SF. 
