Hard Puzzle for July

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Hobacle
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Full name: Xyan Tang

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:34 am

Paloma wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 pm
Hobacle wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:54 pm

2.Kxe7 and then?
1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+ 6. Kg8 Bb6 7.
Kh7 Qf5+ 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2
Could you post your solution completely?

peter
Posts: 2471
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter » Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:18 am

Hobacle wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:34 am
Paloma wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 pm
Hobacle wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:54 pm

2.Kxe7 and then?
1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+ 6. Kg8 Bb6 7.
Kh7 Qf5+ 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2
Could you post your solution completely?
If I may hop in again, how about that:



50 moves reached at 52 (see comment) making engine think it's drawn, which it really is of course as for no-study-rules unless I gave away more than 10 moves yet in .pgn above. Seeing it strictly bound to game- playing rules over the board (which I wouldn't as for studies) one could call it cooked too, if my "solution" is correct at all.

Sorry, Paloma, couldn't sit on my fingers and I had to show my latest idea, not to take the h1- Knight at all. Before I saw that, way forth and back with King along that detour costed me many unnecessary moves in older 2.Kxe7- lines of mine. This one's the longest I have so far yet still anyhow now.

And the line fits to this point of the thread best, having your part of the solution here already regards
Peter.

Hobacle
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Full name: Xyan Tang

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle » Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:36 am

peter wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:18 am


44...Bb6 and then 48...Kb8 ? Do you think that is a waste of time?

peter
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:14 am

Hobacle wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:36 am
peter wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:18 am


44...Bb6 and then 48...Kb8 ? Do you think that is a waste of time?
Not enough as for 50 moves, if my mating- score at Backward is correct to that point, yet there's much doubt about the distances to mate and to 50 moves anyhow with engines chosing longer DsTM for Black to avoid 50 moves. Right now I'm trying with an old Cfish version of mine having UCI parameter of raising 50 to 100 moves.
With this one at your position in question as for 44...Bb6, sorry for german abbr.:



Analysis by Cfish 210718 64 POPCNT NUMA:

44...Lb6 45.Kf8 Df5+ 46.Ke7 Dg6 47.Kf8 Df6+ 48.Kg8 La5 49.Kh7 Df5+ 50.Kh8 Dh5+ 51.Kg8 Ld2 52.Kf8 Lh6 53.Ke7 Lg5+ 54.Kf8 Dh6 55.Kg8 Dg6 56.La2 Lf6 57.Kf8 Dxg7+ 58.Ke8 De7#
Tiefe: 116/30 00:01:12 6086MN

.pgn above is somewhat buggy yet also anyhow, here's a later one with 2.g8Q? lines too, no garantee at all yet still anyhow, just to show the detours and shortcuts possible at the end as for substituting 50 moves boundary and mating lines, that's the reason for differences in output with mating score, Black can move a-Pawn earlier to get longer DTM, but then has 50 moves reached earlier.
Last edited by peter on Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
Peter.

Hobacle
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Full name: Xyan Tang

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:21 am

peter wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:14 am
Hobacle wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:36 am
peter wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:18 am


44...Bb6 and then 48...Kb8 ? Do you think that is a waste of time?
No, if my mating- score at Backward is correct to that point, yet there's much doubt about the distances to mate and to 50 moves anyhow with engines chosing shorter DsTM to avoid 50 moves. Right now I'm trying with an old Cfish version of mine having UCI parameter of raising 50 to 100 moves.
With this one at your position in question as for 44...Bb6, sorry for german abbr.:



Analysis by Cfish 210718 64 POPCNT NUMA:

44...Lb6 45.Kf8 Df5+ 46.Ke7 Dg6 47.Kf8 Df6+ 48.Kg8 La5 49.Kh7 Df5+ 50.Kh8 Dh5+ 51.Kg8 Ld2 52.Kf8 Lh6 53.Ke7 Lg5+ 54.Kf8 Dh6 55.Kg8 Dg6 56.La2 Lf6 57.Kf8 Dxg7+ 58.Ke8 De7#
Tiefe: 116/30 00:01:12 6086MN
What I mean is, you should try 44...Kb8, instead of Bb6.

peter
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:41 am

Hobacle wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:21 am
What I mean is, you should try 44...Kb8, instead of Bb6.
You're right as for 50 moves, this one engine without counting that just doesn't choose, because it makes DTM longer again, as it seems.
Before 44..., (having "seen" ...Kb8 already too as for DTM then):

k5K1/b1p3P1/P1Pp4/2pP3q/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/5P1B/6BN b - - 0 1

Analysis by Cfish 210718 64 POPCNT NUMA:

44...Lb6 45.Kf8 Df5+ 46.Ke7 Dg6 47.Kf8 Df6+ 48.Kg8 La5 49.Kh7 Df5+ 50.Kh8 Dh5+ 51.Kg8 Ld2 52.Kf8 Lh6 53.Ke7 Lg5+ 54.Kf8 Dh6 55.Kg8 Dg6 56.La2 Lf6 57.Kf8 Dxg7+ 58.Ke8 De7#
(-#15) Tiefe: 126/30 00:00:52 4712MN

44...Kb8:
1k4K1/b1p3P1/P1Pp4/2pP3q/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/5P1B/6BN w - - 0 1

Analysis by Cfish 210718 64 POPCNT NUMA:

45.Lb3 Kc8 46.Kf8 Df5+ 47.Ke7 Dg6 48.g8D+ Dxg8 49.Kf6 Lb6 50.Kf5 Kb8 51.a7+ Kxa7 52.Ld1 La5 53.Lxf3 gxf3 54.Kf6 Ld2 55.g4 Lg5+ 56.Kf5 Dg7 57.Le5 Dxe5+ 58.Kg6 Df6+ 59.Kh7 Df7+ 60.Kh8 Lf6#
(-#16) Tiefe: 93/33 00:00:17 1794MN
:)
So I'll now have to check with normal 50 moves boundary and edit my .pgn in that way again, still not sure about 50 moves to be reached or not.

Edit, edit, edit:

45. Kf8 Qf5+ 46. Ke7 Qg6 47. Kf8 Qf6+ 48. Kg8 Kc8 49. Kh7 Qf5+ 50. Kh6 Qf7 51. Kh7 Kd8 52.Kh8 draw 50.

Output at 44...Kb8 with Crystal counting 50 moves normally:

1k4K1/b1p3P1/P1Pp4/2pP3q/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/5P1B/6BN w - - 0 1

45.Kf8 Dh6 46.Kf7 Dh5+
= (0.00) Tiefe: 45/6 00:00:01 47094kN

So 45.Bb3 in output above is blunder of Cfish without 50 moves rule yet regards
Peter.

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Spliffjiffer » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:11 pm

peter wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:18 am
Hobacle wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:34 am
Paloma wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:12 pm
Hobacle wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:54 pm

2.Kxe7 and then?
1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+ 6. Kg8 Bb6 7.
Kh7 Qf5+ 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2
Could you post your solution completely?
If I may hop in again, how about that:



50 moves reached at 52 (see comment) making engine think it's drawn, which it really is of course as for no-study-rules unless I gave away more than 10 moves yet in .pgn above. Seeing it strictly bound to game- playing rules over the board (which I wouldn't as for studies) one could call it cooked too, if my "solution" is correct at all.

Sorry, Paloma, couldn't sit on my fingers and I had to show my latest idea, not to take the h1- Knight at all. Before I saw that, way forth and back with King along that detour costed me many unnecessary moves in older 2.Kxe7- lines of mine. This one's the longest I have so far yet still anyhow now.

And the line fits to this point of the thread best, having your part of the solution here already regards

until Ka8 was reached this was my solution as well (i tried to describe this in words "only" at page 1) i did not investigate further until now and saw that this is violating the 50 move-rule...thx for posting the adequate line, Peter !...maybe the critical comment is this: "Every chess player has a compass in his heart, which points to the future of chess in his mind. This puzzle stands for the compass of mine."
its easy to misunderstand this, but the "solution" IS THERE when we ignore the 50-move-rule...this is a MATE DEFINATELY!...rules make our world and its common knowledge that rules are "best finds" of current state of knowlege and EXPERIENCE !...my interpretation is this: "make new rules if common sense screems for them"...the new eara in chess, "the holy grail of intellectual superiority", is no longer held by US, BUT by calculating power, combined with stored knowledge of thousend of games which overwhelming exceeds our capabilities...the 50-move-"eara" is good for us in competitive chess, YES!!, but only when we play each another....not when we try to find a "truth"....is it draw (really) when i mate u by force in move 51 but the rule tells that it is a draw at move 50 ??!...no...its just a rule...new senses come from experience and aknowledgments...i think its time to make new rules to fit the current state of knowledge we gratefully got by science and we did not had before this eara!?...great respect to this study by Hobacle !...i may understand this wrong, his intention, his solution, his mindgoing, his whole intention to offer THIS one...it is a MATE whatever u do !!!...;-)...great respect
sincerly Peer, and i might be comletely wrong, cool, stay healthy !!
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Hobacle
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Full name: Xyan Tang

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:59 pm

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:11 pm
but the "solution" IS THERE when we ignore the 50-move-rule...this is a MATE DEFINATELY!...
If that's all, then I don't need to step in because many composers HAVE composed puzzles 'above' the 50-move rule. Do you remember my Hard Puzzle for June? If you move the White King to h8, then the puzzle becomes a draw by the 50-move rule, but a win for White when you ignore it. And, here is another one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74234&start=10#p848058
The future is something has not come yet. It CANNOT be seen, but can be inferred.

But one thing is true: there is a mate definitely!

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Spliffjiffer » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:27 pm

Hobacle wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:59 pm
Spliffjiffer wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:11 pm
but the "solution" IS THERE when we ignore the 50-move-rule...this is a MATE DEFINATELY!...
If that's all, then I don't need to step in because many composers HAVE composed puzzles 'above' the 50-move rule. Do you remember my Hard Puzzle for June? If you move the White King to h8, then the puzzle becomes a draw by the 50-move rule, but a win for White when you ignore it. And, here is another one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74234&start=10#p848058
The future is something has not come yet. It CANNOT be seen, but can be inferred.

But one thing is true: there is a mate definitely!
how to get the king to a8/b8 without having managed the bishop to get to b8 is my problem atm

in my sight of view i need to bring the bishop to b8 first to open the way for my king to get towards the centre(say d8,e8...managed after i got the king to a8)...my way is: bring the king to a8 and go to the enamy king and steel the pawn on g7 this is a inferior idia because of the 50-move-rule...i cannot get the the king to a8 whithout plaing Bb6!?...what do i miss?
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Paloma
Posts: 1056
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Paloma » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:54 pm

45.Kf8 must be a worst move.
Chest has after Kf8 a mate in 14 for black! (C0/R0/K6/P4/X11)

45...Qf5+ -14# 46.Ke8 Qg6+ 47.Kf8 Qf6+ 48.Kg8 Ba5 -11# 49.Kh7 Qf5+ 50.Kh8 Qh5+ 51.Kg8 Bd2 52.a7 Bg5 53.Kf8 Qh6 54.Kg8 Qg6 55.Ba6 Bf6 56.Bb7+ Kxa7 57.Kf8 Qxg7+ 58.Ke8 Qe7#

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