Hard Puzzle for July

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Dann Corbit, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
peter
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:12 pm

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:27 pm
in my sight of view i need to bring the bishop to b8 first to open the way for my king to get towards the centre(say d8,e8...managed after i got the king to a8)...my way is: bring the king to a8 and go to the enamy king and steel the pawn on g7 this is a inferior idia because of the 50-move-rule...i cannot get the the king to a8 whithout plaing Bb6!?...what do i miss?
Don't see you missing anything, just at the very end Hobacle found 44...Bb6, as for white King's way to black one, to be a detour relative to direct 44...Kb8.
That just doesn't matter as for distance to 50 to be avoided before mate, so engines get 0.00 eval anyhow in both cases. Option to raise drawing- boundary helps to get the DsTM in output at all. Chest doesn't care about 50 moves- draw in forced mating lines neither, and that's so because of good reasons too, it's just international usage in judging studies, not to see forced mating lines longer but 50 moves without pawn- moves or capturing as incorrect, of course it depends on the studie's themes too, but I for myself wouldn't care about over the board game- playing rule here at all. Not in a study like this, I see it just as one more point for the piece to fool engines in that tricky way, which makes humans' part of understanding even more valuable.
BTW in corr.- tournaments there are also different ways of handling positions of forced lines longer than drawing at 50, it's normal nowadays to agree at start to count such positions as full point too.

Anyhow, this one puzzle of Hobacle's is again a really fine one to me, I like it very much also because of it's natural starting position as for nearness to practical game- play regards
Peter.

Paloma
Posts: 1056
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Paloma » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:27 pm

Paloma wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:54 pm
45.Kf8 must be a worst move.
Chest has after Kf8 a mate in 14 for black! (C0/R0/K6/P4/X11)

45...Qf5+ -14# 46.Ke8 Qg6+ 47.Kf8 Qf6+ 48.Kg8 Ba5 -11# 49.Kh7 Qf5+ 50.Kh8 Qh5+ 51.Kg8 Bd2 52.a7 Bg5 53.Kf8 Qh6 54.Kg8 Qg6 55.Ba6 Bf6 56.Bb7+ Kxa7 57.Kf8 Qxg7+ 58.Ke8 Qe7#
Update:
45.Kf8 is NOT worse. :)
43...Qh5+ -16# 44.Kg8 Bb6 45.Kf8 Qf5+ -14#

The real problem is 43.Kh8
43.Bb3 is better (-13.95)

Hobacle
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Full name: Xyan Tang

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:40 pm

peter wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:12 pm
of course it depends on the studie's themes too, but I for myself wouldn't care about over the board game- playing rule here at all. Not in a study like this, I see it just as one more point for the piece to fool engines in that tricky way, which makes humans' part of understanding even more valuable.
You must consider the 50-move rule in this puzzle.

peter
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:08 am

Hobacle wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:40 pm
You must consider the 50-move rule in this puzzle.
Of course I must, if I want to know, why the engines give 0.00- evals, I need not as for judging it's value, if I do so, I can see it as positive to cross the border, thus fooling the engines, or I can see it as negative, that's a subjektive view of course.

You could just cut off some of the starting- moves, but that would cost much of the difficulty and that's a point of general meaning:
If you compose postitions so hard, that humans with and without engines are unable to solve them, (that's not as difficult as it sounds, just take opening positions e.g. :)) then you at least won't have much audience calling such positions puzzles, making them too easy, people (nowadays of course supported with their engines at once) will wrinkle their noses too.

In psychology there's an analogy with greyhound-racing known, the "rabbit" must not be too fast to make dogs run as fast as they can, of course it must not be too slow neither
:)
Peter.

Hobacle
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Full name: Xyan Tang

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:08 am

peter wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:08 am
Of course I must, if I want to know, why the engines give 0.00- evals, I need not as for judging it's value, if I do so, I can see it as positive to cross the border, thus fooling the engines, or I can see it as negative, that's a subjektive view of course.

You could just cut off some of the starting- moves, but that would cost much of the difficulty and that's a point of general meaning:
If you compose postitions so hard, that humans with and without engines are unable to solve them, (that's not as difficult as it sounds, just take opening positions e.g. :)) then you at least won't have much audience calling such positions puzzles, making them too easy, people (nowadays of course supported with their engines at once) will wrinkle their noses too.

In psychology there's an analogy with greyhound-racing known, the "rabbit" must not be too fast to make dogs run as fast as they can, of course it must not be too slow neither
:)
It seems you haven't known how I compose something.

The first thing I consider is if the theme is beautiful. If i just want to compose something hard to solve, I can just build a composition around the famous endgame KBNvKN. People would say it's hard, but probably not brilliant, because they cannot understand the solution. Art need to be understood after all.
Then the second thing is diffculty. Some beautiful theme has its own difficulty, such as in my puzzles before, but not in the one today. How to enhance the diffculty of puzzles? One method is increasing some opening moves, but just one ply in this puzzle. Another one is, increasing some misleading moves, I call them traps.

Here is my tip:
The White King has to 'go to the enemy king and steel the pawn on g7'(said Spliffjiffer) indeed, like a traveler in the desert, facing a long road without food. However, have you forgotten the White Knight at h1?

peter
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:31 am

Hobacle wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:08 am
Here is my tip:
The White King has to 'go to the enemy king and steel the pawn on g7'(said Spliffjiffer) indeed, like a traveler in the desert, facing a long road without food. However, have you forgotten the White Knight at h1?
Oh, you want to tell me diplomatically, you think it does work <50 moves, do you?
:)
Well, ok then, dear Hobacle, let's see. If I wont come back soon, which I probably won't, (even if I thought so already several times with your puzzles before) I won't have found a shorter way then the ones I had till now.

One thing, that makes me motivated and dismotivated both (see greyhound- example again :)), is, one can never be quite sure, that you on your own are quite sure about the correctness of the puzzles you bring along here always, at least not as for lengthes of the soulition- lines, are you?
Anyhow I don't have to look for solutions longer then 50 nor longer then 41 moves anymore, cause this first one line of mine you didn't like for being to short.
:)

Edit, edit, edit, I forgot your tip about Nh1, this one way doesn't work for White's King to Black's one staying on King's side of the board, because the enemy- pawns block it, so I really don't see a shorter King's Road than the one we know already.
Peter.

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Spliffjiffer » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:20 am

Jesus Christ, this puzzle is absolutely amazing Hobacle !!!
congratulations that you were able to create such a masterpiece, just breathtaking !
a tip: without your tip i wouldnt have solved this...i still dont understand it honestly :-)

so far only the solution with a Crytal 3.1 output after a short backtrack of my mainline:



Code: Select all


FEN: 8/2p1r1P1/P1Pp1K2/b1pP4/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/3q1P1B/k5BN w - - 0 2

Crystal 3.1 avx2:
classical evaluation enabled
 1/1	00:00	 1k	1.260k	 0,00	1. ... Te7-e8
 2/2	00:00	 2k	1.924k	 0,00	1. ... Te7-e8 2.Sd2-e4
 3/4	00:00	 3k	3.392k	+1,53	1. ... Te7-e8 2.Sd2-b3+ Ka1-b2 3.Sb3xa5
 4/5	00:00	 7k	7.496k	+1,23	1. ... Te7-e8 2.Sd2-e4 Db4-a3 3.Kf6-f5
 5/5	00:00	 12k	11.606k	+1,03	1. ... Te7-e8 2.Sd2-e4 Db4-a3 3.Kf6-f5 Ka1-b1
 6/6	00:00	 22k	11.122k	 0,00	1. ... Te7-e8 2.Sd2-e4 Db4-b8 3.Kf6-f7 Db8-d8 4.Se4-f6
 7/8	00:00	 24k	12.063k	 0,00	1. ... Te7-e8 2.Sd2-e4 Db4-b8 3.Kf6-f7 Db8-d8 4.Se4-f6 Dd8-e7+ 5.Kf7-g6
 8/9	00:00	 34k	17.186k	+0,11	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b2 5.Dg7-g6
 9/16	00:00	 53k	17.585k	+0,12	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b1 5.Dg7-g6 Kb1-b2 6.Lc4-b5 Kb2-c3 7.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a7 8.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 9.Kf6-e6 Th5-g5
 10/18	00:00	 61k	20.354k	+0,14	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b1 5.Dg7-g6 Kb1-b2 6.Lc4-b5 Kb2-c3 7.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a7 8.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 9.Kf6-e6 Th5-g5 10.Dg7xc7
 11/21	00:00	 92k	23.019k	+0,14	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Lc4-b5 Ka1-b2 5.Lb5-c4 Kb2-b1 6.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 7.Kf6-e7 Th5-g5 8.Dg7-f6 Tg5-g8 9.Ke7-d7
 12/41	00:00	 190k	21.066k	+0,14	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b2 5.Dg7-g6 Kb2-b1 6.Lc4-b5 Dd2-b4 7.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a7 8.Dg6xg4 Db4-b8 9.Dg4-h4 Db8-f8+ 10.Kf6-g6 Df8-g8+ 11.Kg6-f6 La7-b6 12.Dh4-h6 Dg8-d8+ 13.Kf6-g6 Dd8-c8 14.g3-g4 Dc8xg4+ 15.Kg6-f7 Te5-f5+ 16.Dh6-f6 Tf5xf6+ 17.Kf7xf6 Kb1-c2 18.Kf6-e7 Kc2-d1 19.Sh1-g3 Dg4-g7+ 20.Ke7-e8 Dg7-g5 21.Ke8-f7
 13/46	00:00	 280k	21.516k	+0,12	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b2 5.Dg7-g6 Kb2-b1 6.Lc4-b3 Lb6-a7 7.Lb3-c4 Dd2-b4 8.Dg6xg4 Db4-b8 9.Dg4-h4 Db8-f8+ 10.Kf6-g6 Df8-g8+ 11.Kg6-f6 Kb1-c2 12.Dh4-h6 Dg8-d8+ 13.Kf6-g6 Dd8-e8+ 14.Kg6-f6 Te5-h5 15.Dh6xh5 De8xh5 16.g3-g4 Dh5xg4 17.Sh1-g3 La7-b6 18.Sg3-e4 Kc2-d1 19.Se4-g5 Kd1-d2 20.Sg5-e4+ Kd2-e1 21.Lh2-g3 Dg4-g8
 14/49	00:00	 475k	20.666k	+0,08	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Lc4-b5 Ka1-b2 5.Lb5-c4 Kb2-b1 6.Lc4-b5 Dd2-b4 7.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a7 8.Dg6xg4 Db4-b8 9.Dg4-f4 Db8-h8+ 10.Kf6-g6 Dh8-h5+ 11.Kg6-f6 Te5-e8 12.g3-g4 Dh5-h7 13.Df4-f5 Dh7-h6+ 14.Df5-g6 Te8-f8+ 15.Kf6-e7 Dh6xg6 16.Ke7xf8 Kb1-b2 17.Sh1-g3 Dg6xg4 18.Kf8-e7 Dg4-g7+ 19.Ke7-e6 Dg7-f8
 15/33	00:00	 550k	20.381k	+0,10	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b1 5.Lc4-b5 Kb1-c2 6.Lb5-c4 Kc2-c3 7.Dg7-g6 Kc3-b2 8.Lc4-b5 Kb2-c2 9.Lb5-c4 Kc2-b1 10.Lc4-b5 Dd2-b4 11.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a7 12.Dg6xg4 Db4-b8 13.Dg4-f4 Db8-h8+ 14.Kf6-g6
 16/34	00:00	 714k	20.387k	+0,13	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b1 5.Lc4-b5 Kb1-c2 6.Lb5-c4 Kc2-c3 7.Dg7-g6 Lb6-a7 8.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 9.Kf6-e6 Th5-g5 10.Dg7xc7 Dd2-e2+ 11.Ke6-f7 De2-e5 12.Dc7-a5+ Kc3-c2 13.Da5-a2+ Kc2-c1 14.Da2-a1+ Kc1-d2 15.Da1-b2+ Kd2-e1 16.Db2-c1+ Ke1-e2 17.Dc1-e3+ d4xe3 18.d3-d4+ Ke2-d2
 17/32	00:00	 791k	20.288k	+0,15	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b1 5.Dg7-g6 Kb1-b2 6.Lc4-b5 Kb2-c3 7.Dg6-g7 Lb6-a7 8.Lb5-c4 Te5-h5 9.Kf6-e7 Th5-g5 10.Dg7-f7 Dd2-e1+ 11.Ke7-d8 De1-e5 12.Df7-e8 De5xe8+ 13.Kd8xe8 La7-b6
 18/35	00:00	 1.271k	19.863k	+0,22	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b1 5.Dg7-g6 Kb1-b2 6.Lc4-b5 Kb2-c3 7.Dg6-g7 Lb6-a7 8.Lb5-c4 Te5-h5 9.Kf6-e7 Th5-g5 10.Dg7-f6 La7-b6 11.Df6-f4 Dd2-e1+ 12.Ke7-f8 Tg5-e5 13.Kf8-g7 Te5-e8 14.Df4-f6 De1-e5 15.Df6xe5
 19/33	00:00	 1.445k	20.075k	+0,22	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b1 5.Lc4-b5 Kb1-b2 6.Dg7-g6 Kb2-c3 7.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a7 8.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 9.Kf6-e7 Th5-g5 10.Dg7-f6 La7-b6 11.Df6-f4 Dd2-e1+ 12.Ke7-f8 Tg5-e5 13.Kf8-g7 Te5-e8 14.Kg7-g6 Kc3-c2
 20/46	00:00	 2.569k	20.555k	+0,22	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g7 La5-b6 4.Dg7-g6 Ka1-b2 5.Lc4-b5 Kb2-c3 6.Dg6-g7 Lb6-a7 7.Lb5-c4 Te5-h5 8.Kf6-e6 Th5-g5 9.Dg7-f6 La7-b6 10.Ke6-f7 Tg5-h5 11.Df6-g6 Dd2-g5 12.Dg6xg5 Th5xg5 13.Kf7-e7 Tg5-g8 14.Ke7-e6 Kc3-d2 15.Ke6-e7 Tg8-h8 16.Ke7-e6 Kd2-d1 17.Ke6-e7 Kd1-c1 18.a6-a7 Kc1-c2 19.a7-a8D Th8xa8 20.Ke7-e6
 21/42	00:00	 2.927k	20.614k	+0,25	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g7 La5-b6 4.Lc4-b5 Ka1-b2 5.Dg7-g6 Kb2-c3 6.Dg6-g7 Lb6-a7 7.Lb5-c4 Te5-h5 8.Kf6-e6 Th5-g5 9.Dg7-f6 La7-b6 10.Ke6-f7 Tg5-h5 11.Df6-g6 Dd2-h6 12.Dg6xh6 Th5xh6 13.Kf7-e7 Kc3-d2 14.Ke7-f7 Th6-h8 15.Kf7-e6 Kd2-d1 16.Ke6-e7 Kd1-e2 17.Ke7-d7 Ke2-e1 18.Kd7-e7
 22/39	00:00	 3.927k	20.241k	+0,25	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g7 La5-b6 4.Lc4-b5 Ka1-b2 5.Dg7-g6 Kb2-c3 6.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a7 7.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 8.Kf6-e6 Th5-g5 9.Dg7-f6 La7-b6 10.Ke6-d7 Tg5-g8 11.Df6-f4 Kc3-c2 12.Df4-f6 Kc2-b2 13.Kd7-e7 Dd2-g5 14.Df6xg5 Tg8xg5 15.Ke7-d7 Tg5-g8 16.a6-a7 Kb2-c2 17.a7-a8T
 23/60	00:00	 6.284k	19.824k	+0,27	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Lc4-b5 Ka1-b1 5.Dg6-g7 Kb1-c2 6.Lb5-c4 Kc2-c3 7.Dg7-g6 Lb6-a7 8.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 9.Kf6-e7 Th5-g5 10.Dg7-f6 Tg5-g8 11.Ke7-f7 Dd2-g5 12.Df6xg5 Tg8xg5 13.Kf7-e7 La7-b6 14.Ke7-d7 Tg5-g8 15.Kd7-e6 Kc3-d2 16.Ke6-f7 Tg8-a8 17.Kf7-e6 Ta8-h8 18.Lc4-b5 Th8-g8 19.Ke6-f7 Tg8-g5 20.Kf7-e7 Kd2-c2 21.Ke7-d8 Tg5-g8+ 22.Kd8-e7 Kc2-c1 23.Ke7-d7
 24/50	00:00	 11.590k	19.745k	+0,37	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Lc4-b3 Ka1-b1 5.Lb3-c4 Kb1-b2 6.Lc4-b5 Kb2-c3 7.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a7 8.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 9.Kf6-e7 Th5-g5 10.Dg7-f6 Tg5-g8 11.Ke7-f7 Dd2-g5 12.Df6xg5 Tg8xg5 13.Kf7-e8 La7-b6 14.Ke8-d7 Tg5-g8 15.Kd7-e6 Kc3-d2 16.Ke6-f6 Kd2-e1 17.Kf6-f7 Tg8-g5 18.Kf7-e6 Ke1-f1 19.Ke6-e7 Tg5-g8 20.Ke7-f7 Tg8-b8 21.Kf7-g6
 25/48	00:00	 17.750k	19.378k	+0,62	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Lc4-b5 Ka1-b2 5.Lb5-c4 Kb2-b1 6.Dg6-g7 Kb1-a1 7.Kf6-f7 Dd2-g5 8.Dg7xg5 Te5xg5 9.Kf7-f6 Tg5-h5 10.Kf6-e7 Ka1-b1 11.Ke7-d7 Th5-h8 12.Kd7-e7 Kb1-c2 13.Ke7-e6 Kc2-d2 14.Ke6-f7 Th8-h6 15.Kf7-f8 Kd2-e2 16.Kf8-e7 Ke2-e1 17.Ke7-d7 Th6-h8 18.a6-a7 Ke1-d2 19.Lc4-a6
 26/101	00:02	 50.483k	18.601k	+0,66	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Dg6-g7 Ka1-b2 5.Dg7-g6 Kb2-c3 6.Lc4-b5 Kc3-c2 7.Lb5-a4+ Kc2-b2 8.La4-b5 Lb6-a7 9.Lb5-c4 Kb2-c3 10.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 11.Dg7xg4 Dd2-h6+ 12.Kf6-f7 Dh6-h8 13.Dg4-g6 Th5-h7+ 14.Dg6xh7 Dh8xh7+ 15.Kf7-f6 Dh7-h6+ 16.Kf6-e7 Dh6-g5+ 17.Ke7-d7 Dg5-f5+ 18.Kd7-d8 Df5-g4 19.Kd8xc7 Dg4-g7+ 20.Kc7xd6 La7-b8+ 21.Kd6-e6 Dg7-g6+ 22.Ke6-e7 Lb8-d6+ 23.Ke7-d7 Dg6-f6
 27/62+	00:03	 66.105k	18.444k	+0,93	1. ... Db4xd2
 27/83	00:03	 72.045k	18.449k	+1,06	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Lc4-b5 Ka1-b2 5.Lb5-c4 Kb2-c3 6.Lc4-b5 Dd2-c1 7.Dg6-g7 Lb6-a7 8.Lb5-c4 Dc1-d2 9.Dg7-g6 Kc3-c2 10.Dg6-g7 Te5-h5 11.Kf6-e7 Th5-g5 12.Dg7-f6 Tg5-g8 13.Ke7-f7 Dd2-g5 14.Df6xg5 Tg8xg5 15.Kf7-e6 La7-b6 16.Ke6-d7 Tg5-g8 17.Kd7-e6 Kc2-b2 18.Ke6-f7 Tg8-g5 19.a6-a7 Lb6xa7 20.Kf7-f6 Tg5-g8 21.Kf6-f7 Tg8-h8 22.Kf7-f6 Kb2-c2 23.Kf6-g7 Th8-b8 24.Kg7-f6 Tb8-a8 25.Kf6-f7 Kc2-d2 26.Kf7-g6 Ta8-g8+ 27.Kg6-f7 Tg8-h8 28.Kf7-g6 Kd2-c3 29.Lc4-b5 Th8-g8+ 30.Kg6-f7 Tg8-g5 31.Kf7-f6 Tg5xd5 32.Lb5-c4
 28/65+	00:04	 90.026k	18.165k	+1,59	1. ... Db4xd2
 28/65+	00:05	 98.022k	18.105k	+1,63	1. ... Db4xd2
 28/65+	00:05	 107.274k	18.081k	+1,78	1. ... Db4xd2
 28/70	00:06	 110.386k	18.150k	+1,82	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Kf6-f7 Dd2-g5 5.Dg6xg5 Te5xg5 6.Kf7-f6 Tg5-h5 7.Kf6-e7 Ka1-b1 8.Ke7-e8 Kb1-c2 9.Ke8-d7 Th5-h8 10.Lc4-b5 Kc2-d2 11.Kd7-e7 Th8-g8 12.Ke7-f6 Kd2-e1 13.Kf6-f7 Tg8-g5 14.Kf7-e6 Ke1-e2 15.Ke6-d7 Tg5-g8 16.Kd7-e6 Ke2-f1 17.Ke6-f7 Tg8-g5 18.Kf7-e8 Kf1-g2 19.Ke8-d7 Tg5-g8 20.Lb5-c4 Lb6-a5 21.Kd7-e6 Kg2xh1 22.Ke6-d7 Tg8-a8 23.Lc4-b5
 29/51-	00:07	 135.433k	17.884k	+2,05	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 29/51-	00:07	 137.109k	17.874k	+2,01	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 29/62-	00:07	 142.162k	17.864k	+1,86	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 29/62+	00:08	 143.740k	17.865k	+1,93	1. ... Db4xd2
 29/94+	00:08	 155.756k	17.878k	+2,09	1. ... Db4xd2
 29/94	00:08	 157.130k	17.882k	+2,07	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Kf6-f7 Dd2-h6 4.Dg8xg4 La5-d2 5.a6-a7 Dh6-h7+ 6.Dg4-g7 Dh7-h5+ 7.Dg7-g6 Dh5-h8 8.Dg6-g8 Te5-f5+ 9.Kf7-e6 Dh8xg8+ 10.Ke6xf5 Ka1-b2 11.g3-g4 Dg8-g5+ 12.Kf5-e6 Dg5xg4+ 13.Ke6-f7 Dg4-f5+ 14.Kf7-g7 Df5-c8 15.Sh1-g3 Ld2-a5 16.Kg7-f6 Dc8-a8 17.Kf6-f5 Da8xa7 18.Sg3-e4 Da7-a8 19.Lh2-g3 Da8-g8 20.Lg1-h2 Kb2-c2 21.Se4-g5 La5-d2 22.Lg3-f4 Dg8-c8+ 23.Sg5-e6 Ld2xf4 24.Kf5xf4 Dc8-g8 25.Se6-g5 Kc2-d1
 30/59-	00:09	 166.668k	17.875k	+2,00	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 30/59-	00:09	 167.472k	17.873k	+1,96	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 30/68+	00:09	 169.040k	17.863k	+2,00	1. ... Db4xd2
 30/68	00:09	 170.236k	17.859k	+1,93	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Kf6-f7 Dd2-h6 4.Dg8xg4 La5-d2 5.a6-a7 Dh6-h7+ 6.Dg4-g7 Dh7-f5+ 7.Dg7-f6 Df5-h5+ 8.Df6-g6 Dh5-h8 9.Dg6-g8 Te5-f5+ 10.Kf7-e6 Dh8xg8+ 11.Ke6xf5 Ka1-b2 12.g3-g4 Dg8-g5+ 13.Kf5-e6 Dg5xg4+ 14.Ke6-f7 Dg4-f5+ 15.Kf7-g7 Df5-c8 16.Sh1-g3 Ld2-a5 17.Sg3-e4 La5-b6 18.Kg7-f6 Lb6xa7 19.Kf6-g5 Kb2-c2 20.Kg5-h4 Kc2-d1 21.Se4-g5 Dc8-h8+ 22.Kh4-g4 Dh8-g8 23.Kg4-f4 La7-b6 24.Sg5xh3 Kd1-e2 25.Sh3-g5 Lb6-a5 26.Sg5-e4 La5-d2+ 27.Kf4-f5 Dg8-f7+ 28.Kf5-g4 Ld2-c1 29.Lh2-g3 Df7-g6+ 30.Kg4-h4 Dg6-f5 31.Lg3-h2 Df5-h7+ 32.Kh4-g4 Dh7-g6+ 33.Kg4-h4 Ke2-f1
 31/66+	00:09	 178.024k	17.836k	+1,85	1. ... Db4xd2
 31/66-	00:10	 181.160k	17.836k	+1,77	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 31/66-	00:11	 212.755k	17.856k	+1,62	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 31/66+	00:11	 213.869k	17.857k	+1,69	1. ... Db4xd2
 31/74	00:12	 216.189k	17.859k	+1,69	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8xg4 Dd2-h6+ 4.Kf6-f7 Dh6-h7+ 5.Dg4-g7 Te5-e7+ 6.Kf7xe7 Dh7xg7+ 7.Ke7-d8 Dg7-g8+ 8.Kd8-e7 Dg8-g5+ 9.Ke7-f7 Dg5-f5+ 10.Kf7-e8 Df5-g4 11.a6-a7 Dg4-g7 12.a7-a8T Dg7-g8+ 13.Ke8-d7 Dg8xa8 14.g3-g4 Da8-g8 15.g4-g5 Dg8xg5 16.Kd7-c8 La5-b6 17.Sh1-g3 Ka1-b1 18.Sg3-e4 Dg5-c1 19.Se4-f6 Dc1-a3 20.Kc8-d7 Kb1-c2 21.Lh2-f4 Kc2-d1 22.Lg1-h2 Kd1-e1 23.Lf4-g3 Da3-a7 24.Sf6-e4 Da7-a8 25.Lg3-h4 Da8-h8
 32/58-	00:13	 234.378k	17.882k	+1,53	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 32/58-	00:13	 235.016k	17.881k	+1,49	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 32/60-	00:13	 240.345k	17.884k	+1,43	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 32/71+	00:14	 252.738k	17.894k	+1,48	1. ... Db4xd2
 32/74	00:14	 255.738k	17.903k	+1,46	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Kf6-f7 Dd2-h6 4.Dg8xg4 Dh6-h7+ 5.Dg4-g7 Dh7-f5+ 6.Dg7-f6 Df5-h5+ 7.Df6-g6 Te5-f5+ 8.Kf7-g7 Tf5-g5 9.Dg6xg5 Dh5xg5+ 10.Kg7-f7 Dg5-f5+ 11.Kf7-e8 Df5-g4 12.a6-a7 Dg4-g7 13.Ke8-d8 Dg7-f8+ 14.Kd8-d7 La5-b6 15.g3-g4 Lb6xa7 16.Sh1-g3 Df8-f7+ 17.Kd7-d8 Df7-g8+ 18.Kd8-d7 La7-b6 19.g4-g5 Dg8xg5 20.Kd7-c8 Ka1-b1 21.Sg3-e4 Dg5-c1 22.Se4-f6 Dc1-a3 23.Sf6-e8 Da3-a8+ 24.Kc8-d7 Da8-a7 25.Lh2-f4 Kb1-c2 26.Lg1-h2 Kc2-d1 27.Lh2-g3 Kd1-e1 28.Lg3-h4 Ke1-f1 29.Lf4-g3
 33/76-	00:15	 281.678k	17.924k	+1,30	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 33/76-	00:15	 282.521k	17.925k	+1,26	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 33/84-	00:17	 310.916k	17.961k	+1,11	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 33/84	00:19	 349.297k	18.007k	+1,03	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Kf6-f7 Dd2-h6 4.Dg8xg4 Dh6-h7+ 5.Dg4-g7 Dh7-f5+ 6.Dg7-f6 Df5-h5+ 7.Df6-g6 Te5-f5+ 8.Kf7-g7 Tf5-g5 9.Dg6xg5 Dh5xg5+ 10.Kg7-f7 Dg5-f5+ 11.Kf7-e8 Df5-g4 12.a6-a7 Dg4-g7 13.Ke8-d8 Dg7-f8+ 14.Kd8-d7 La5-b6 15.g3-g4 Lb6xa7 16.Sh1-g3 Df8-f7+ 17.Kd7-d8 Df7-g8+ 18.Kd8-d7 La7-b6 19.g4-g5 Dg8xg5 20.Kd7-c8 Dg5-c1 21.Sg3-e4 Ka1-b1 22.Kc8-b7 Lb6-a5 23.Kb7-c8 Kb1-c2 24.Kc8-b7 Kc2-d1 25.Lh2xd6 c7xd6 26.Lg1-h2 Dc1-b1+ 27.Kb7-c8 Db1-b6 28.Lh2xd6 Db6-a7 29.c6-c7 Kd1-e1 30.Ld6-h2 La5xc7 31.Lh2xc7 Da7-a8+ 32.Kc8-d7 Ke1-f1 33.Lc7-g3 Kf1-g2 34.d5-d6 Da8-h8 35.Kd7-e6 h3-h2 36.Lg3xh2 Kg2xh2 37.Ke6-d5 Dh8-g7
 34/72+	00:22	 402.885k	17.966k	+0,75	1. ... Db4xd2
 34/72+	00:22	 403.241k	17.966k	+0,80	1. ... Db4xd2
 34/98+	00:38	 671.255k	17.354k	+2,75	1. ... Db4xd2
 34/98	00:55	 947.048k	17.154k	+3,39	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8xg4 Dd2-h6+ 4.Kf6-f7 Dh6-h7+ 5.Dg4-g7 Te5-e7+ 6.Kf7xe7 Dh7xg7+ 7.Ke7-d8 Dg7-g8+ 8.Kd8-e7 La5-d2 9.g3-g4 Ld2-g5+ 10.Ke7-d7 Dg8-d8+ 11.Kd7-e6 Ka1-b2 12.Ke6-f5 Dd8-f6+ 13.Kf5-e4 Kb2-c1 14.a6-a7 Df6-f8 15.a7-a8D Df8xa8 16.Ke4xf3 Da8-f8+ 17.Kf3-g3 Df8-f6 18.Kg3xh3 Df6-f3+ 19.Sh1-g3 Kc1-c2 20.Lc4-a6 Kc2-b2 21.La6-c4 Kb2-c3 22.Lc4-b5 Kc3-b4 23.Lb5-a6 Lg5-d8 24.La6-c4 Ld8-e7 25.Lc4-a6 Df3xd5 26.Sg3-f5 Dd5-f3+ 27.Lh2-g3 Le7-d8 28.La6-c4 d6-d5 29.Lc4-a6 Df3-d1 30.Lg3-h2 c5-c4 31.Kh3-g3 c4xd3
 35/67-	00:55	 956.859k	17.144k	+3,35	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D
 35/67+	00:55	 958.224k	17.142k	+3,39	1. ... Db4xd2
 35/73+	01:13	 1.257.167k	17.008k	+3,54	1. ... Db4xd2
 35/78	01:29	 1.519.736k	16.977k	+3,64	1. ... Db4xd2 2.g7-g8D Te7-e5 3.Dg8-g6 La5-b6 4.Kf6-f7 Dd2-g5 5.Dg6xg5 Te5xg5 6.Kf7-e8 Ka1-b2 7.Ke8-d7 Tg5-g8 8.Kd7-e7 Kb2-c1 9.Ke7-f7 Tg8-g5 10.Kf7-e6 Kc1-d2 11.Ke6-d7 Tg5-g8 12.Kd7-e7 Kd2-e1 13.Lc4-b5 Ke1-f1 14.Ke7-f7 Tg8-a8 15.Kf7-e7 Kf1-g2 16.Ke7-f6 Ta8-g8 17.Kf6-e7 Kg2xh1 18.Ke7-d7 Tg8-f8 19.Kd7-e7 Tf8-b8 20.Ke7-e6 Lb6-a5 21.Lb5-c4 Tb8-g8 22.Ke6-d7 Tg8-a8 23.Lc4-b5 Ta8-b8 24.Lb5-a4 Tb8-h8 25.La4-b5 La5-e1 26.Kd7xc7 Le1xf2 27.Lg1xf2 Kh1xh2



Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

peter
Posts: 2471
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:35 am

I see, you try to avoid 50 moves- rule by taking Nh1 as a midway- capture- move.

Even if that does work, (haven't had a closer look with engine till now, but reading just from forum-animated .pgn of yours, I' think, White should be able to have some single more moves at the very end by avoiding to set Black's- c- pawn free with own Bishop- move unnecessarily soon, thus gaining some moves to next pawn move over 50 from Kxh1 counted.

And my main objection would be, if that really worked now without crossing 50 move boundary yet at all, that the way without taking Nh1 was the much clearer and therefore more thematic one, with or without 50 moves- rule regarded, and the way with taking at h1 midway I'd call a unecessesary seesaw, just as for beauty and moves of matter. Of course, if 50moves- rule matters as for the author's solution to him (the author), it's his decision, which one way to give as counting solved or not solved.

And the judge in the competition or in the magazine, where it's first publicised, has to choose then, if he (she) thinks the longer or the shorter way more motivated by theme and clear as for his (her) trials and evaluations of possible lines.

But that's all still a matter of taste anyhow too and in the eye of the beholder.
And it's a clever idea of yours to try a longer way. that's maybe yet really not crossing 50 without pawn- or capture- move anyhow, so the author can choose, which one to give as his main line of solution to the judges in competition or original publication
:)
Last edited by peter on Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Peter.

Hobacle
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Full name: Xyan Tang

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:49 am

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:20 am
Jesus Christ, this puzzle is absolutely amazing Hobacle !!!
congratulations that you were able to create such a masterpiece, just breathtaking !
a tip: without your tip i wouldnt have solved this...i still dont understand it honestly :-)

so far only the solution with a Crytal 3.1 output after a short backtrack of my mainline:

Congratulations! You solved it!

And I have a question, did you find 20...Kb1!! on your own?
Last edited by Hobacle on Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Spliffjiffer » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:50 am

hi Peter,
yes i agree that the solution is odd, only because of "a" 50 move-rule...thats the time we live in atm...i sayed that this is not en vogue nowadys anymor e from my personal point of view...the work of Hobacle though is absolutely amazing though and to work this incredable theme out to the boundary of these 50 moves to an ART of unbelievability makes this thing "grandios"...its just unbelievable that white gets faster to a8 from h1 than from c3 (so to speak)...this is really irrational...but its chess and it works (probably) !!?
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Post Reply