Stockfish 14 release round the corner

[AndrewGrant]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

Okay, Ill file a competing assertion, and open myself to libel: Albert did not generate his own data.
Guess the reader will have to decide what to believe on their own, and not accept competing assertions.

[dkappe]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

Okay, Ill file a competing assertion, and open myself to libel: Albert did not generate his own data.
Guess the reader will have to what to believe on their own, and not accept competing assertions.

You are not a serious person.

As I’ve already pointed out in the thread on leela data, training data that uses temperature leaves something to be desired. The stockfish team will soon start generating their own lc0 data, I expect, just as Albert did. If I can generate close to 1b positions with a slower julia/torchscript engine running bad gyal, I’m sure others with an actual budget can generate more.

[AndrewGrant]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

Okay, Ill file a competing assertion, and open myself to libel: Albert did not generate his own data.
Guess the reader will have to what to believe on their own, and not accept competing assertions.

As I’ve already pointed out in the thread on leela data, training data that uses temperature leaves something to be desired. The stockfish team will soon start generating their own lc0 data, I expect, just as Albert did. If I can generate close to 1b positions with a slower julia/torchscript engine running bad gyal, I’m sure others with an actual budget can generate more.

Emphasis on the thread history mine.

Are you really playing word games with the difference between "Lc0 training data" (Data generated by the Leela team using the Leela engine), and "Lc0 data" (Data generated by Leela, by a 3rd party)? I hope I'm reading that wrong because its so disgustingly disingenuous to the reader.

[connor_mcmonigle]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

As per Albert himself, it was trained on Fat Fritz 1 data. Fat Fritz 1 is just rebranded Lc0. According to Albert, the network was pretrained on human game results, but the majority of the training data did result from Lc0 self play with some tweaked hyperparameters from what I can discern from ChessBase's articles on it and Albert's comments.

[AndrewGrant]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

As per Albert himself, it was trained on Fat Fritz 1 data. Fat Fritz 1 is just rebranded Lc0. According to Albert, the network was pretrained on human game results, but the majority of the training data did result from Lc0 self play with some tweaked hyperparameters from what I can discern from ChessBase's articles on it and Albert's comments.

Assuming your statement of his statement is correct, then Dkappe is indeed playing semantic games to trick the reader. Disgusting.

[dkappe]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

As per Albert himself, it was trained on Fat Fritz 1 data. Fat Fritz 1 is just rebranded Lc0. According to Albert, the network was pretrained on human game results, but the majority of the training data did result from Lc0 self play with some tweaked hyperparameters from what I can discern from ChessBase's articles on it and Albert's comments.

What do you mean by “Lc0 self play?”

[connor_mcmonigle]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

As per Albert himself, it was trained on Fat Fritz 1 data. Fat Fritz 1 is just rebranded Lc0. According to Albert, the network was pretrained on human game results, but the majority of the training data did result from Lc0 self play with some tweaked hyperparameters from what I can discern from ChessBase's articles on it and Albert's comments.

What do you mean by “Lc0 self play?”

The Lc0 engine playing against itself (using all the Lc0 team's self play game data generation code)

Try to remember the context of my initial post. If the Stockfish team generated their own data by way of a separate training run (maybe with some SL pretraining on some number of SF games), I don't think that would have any meaningful impact on the final NNUE network or whether it was deemed kosher by CCRL.

[Modern Times]

From my point of view, I don't see any reason why CCRL would not test Stockfish 14. In fact the CCRL chess960 list already includes a version that uses an NNUE based on Lc0 games. Individual testers will make their own choice with this one I think. It is a bit of a minefield, of course you then open the floodgates - other engines may use the Lc0 games, and then we have to defend why we would or would not test those. It is a lose-lose situation. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[dkappe]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

Okay, Ill file a competing assertion, and open myself to libel: Albert did not generate his own data.
Guess the reader will have to what to believe on their own, and not accept competing assertions.

As I’ve already pointed out in the thread on leela data, training data that uses temperature leaves something to be desired. The stockfish team will soon start generating their own lc0 data, I expect, just as Albert did. If I can generate close to 1b positions with a slower julia/torchscript engine running bad gyal, I’m sure others with an actual budget can generate more.

Emphasis on the thread history mine.

Are you really playing word games with the difference between "Lc0 training data" (Data generated by the Leela team using the Leela engine), and "Lc0 data" (Data generated by Leela, by a 3rd party)? I hope I'm reading that wrong because its so disgustingly disingenuous to the reader.

Since you appear not to be that familiar with lc0, I’ll cut you some slack. There is a special mode in lc0 for generating training data via self play. This type of data when converted to nnue training data doesn’t work that well. If you instead use some sort of UCI harness that takes care of randomized openings, you can generate nnue training data that works much better. I hope you now understand the distinction.

[AndrewGrant]

Just to correct you: Fat Fritz 2 was not trained on lc0 training data.

I don't think you can assert that. And I would sooner assert the opposite, given Albert's inability to do anything on his own.

I can and I did. Best to sit down now and not speak of things about which you know nothing.

Okay, Ill file a competing assertion, and open myself to libel: Albert did not generate his own data.
Guess the reader will have to what to believe on their own, and not accept competing assertions.

As I’ve already pointed out in the thread on leela data, training data that uses temperature leaves something to be desired. The stockfish team will soon start generating their own lc0 data, I expect, just as Albert did. If I can generate close to 1b positions with a slower julia/torchscript engine running bad gyal, I’m sure others with an actual budget can generate more.

Emphasis on the thread history mine.

Are you really playing word games with the difference between "Lc0 training data" (Data generated by the Leela team using the Leela engine), and "Lc0 data" (Data generated by Leela, by a 3rd party)? I hope I'm reading that wrong because its so disgustingly disingenuous to the reader.

Since you appear not to be that familiar with lc0, I’ll cut you some slack. There is a special mode in lc0 for generating training data via self play. This type of data when converted to nnue training data doesn’t work that well. If you instead use some sort of UCI harness that takes care of randomized openings, you can generate nnue training data that works much better. I hope you now understand the distinction.

Looks like I caught the word games you put down. I encourage everyone to read and re-read postings from Dkappe and Albert. These sort of shenanigans are just some of the tools they use to peddle their views while having a degree of truth to fall back onto. You see it time and time again on the forums, and in the world at large.