will Tcec allow Stockfish with a Leela net to play?

[dkappe]

Moderators: can we move this thread to engine origins? All the usual suspects are making their usual arguments.

[willmorton]

komodo 14 has 62% with stockfish so unless you think komodo team copied stuff from stockfish i'd say results in the 60-65 range should be taken with a pinch of salt

[ChickenLogic]

Then you're just misinformed or willfully ignorant...

This is all I can find (from Ed's site)
Houdini to
Stockfish 7,8 and 9 60-64%

Houdini to
Komodo 10,11 and 12 65%

yeah, except Houdini is neither SF 7 nor SF 9 nor is it SF8. It is a version between 8 and 9. Test again.

[connor_mcmonigle]

Houdini's lower similarity can be attributed to its evaluation function being somewhat original (at least among publicly availably evaluation function). Regardless, it is a clone due to its search function and many related component being copy pasted from Stockfish on inspection of the code. That's not disputed to the best of my knowledge and is the reason behind TCEC's decision to no longer allow it to participate.

[AndrewGrant]

The fact that you think those (completely cosmetic) changes constitute "modifications" should be telling.

Yet, Fire improved 174 elo when nnue was added...
much more than any Segio V. RL net would provide

Ethereal 12.75 x64-pext-avx2 SF-NNUE is about 224 Elo points above Ethereal 12.50 x64.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 6&p=865835

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As much as I like showcasing how daft Norman is, can we fork this thread so that we can get back to Wilsonz's original question, which I think was an interesting one. What constitutes originality, what are the components of it. At what point is an engine not original enough? What other factors are there?

[kranium]

The fact that you think those (completely cosmetic) changes constitute "modifications" should be telling.

Yet, Fire improved 174 elo when nnue was added...
much more than any Segio V. RL net would provide

Ethereal 12.75 x64-pext-avx2 SF-NNUE is about 224 Elo points above Ethereal 12.50 x64.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 6&p=865835

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As much as I like showcasing how daft Norman is, can we fork this thread so that we can get back to Wilsonz's original question, which I think was an interesting one. What constitutes originality, what are the components of it. At what point is an engine not original enough? What other factors are there?

you know as well as I do there's a significant elo difference between Ethereal 12.5 and 12.75
let me take a guess...50 elo?

[marsell]

This is all I can find (from Ed's site)
Houdini to
Stockfish 7,8 and 9 60-64%

Houdini to
Komodo 10,11 and 12 65%

Houdini is as original as all the other engines here, including Komodo, Etheral ...

[kranium]

This is all I can find (from Ed's site)
Houdini to
Stockfish 7,8 and 9 60-64%

Houdini to
Komodo 10,11 and 12 65%

Houdini is as original as all the other engines here, including Komodo, Etheral ...

+1

[kranium]

Regardless, it is a clone due to its search function and many related component being copy pasted from Stockfish on inspection of the code. That's not disputed to the best of my knowledge and is the reason behind TCEC's decision to no longer allow it to participate.

Concerning TCEC...someone at TCEC told you this? or it's your perception, your theory?

I do know that TCEC does not have expert and unbiased programmers on staff, but
I don't think they made this decision in a vacuum...

My guess is that Andrew (and fan boys) arrogantly and incessantly posted about in chat, etc. until they felt the heat and take his word for it.
They stripped Houdini of all it's championship medals and banned it...

It's pretty comparable to the fiasco and injustice that happened to Rybka, but at least in that case, instead of a lynch mob, there was a large group of programmers that discussed evidence and came to an mutual agreement.

That same kind of pressure is being applied to testers...very difficult for them not to acquiesce...
because they are dependent on others for these decisions.
I ask you... what voice are they hearing the loudest?

I hate to see them being put in such a difficult position...and i hope they don't get led astray by someone who seems to spend more time disparaging and discrediting everyone and every engine around him in order to advance in the rating lists, than working on his engine.

[Madeleine Birchfield]

JohnWoe's Mayhem is a more unique engine than Fire 8 NN: Even though both engines have a network architecture copied from Srockfish and a net taken from the Stockfish team, Mayhem at least has a unique search, compared to Fire 8 NN's search being copied from Houdini 6 which was copied from Srockfish 9 dev.