A few observations on NNUE/ SF/ FatFritz2 and an alternate scenario.

[AndrewGrant]

Do I have a sort of confirmation bias with Alayan, since we are friends? Or is it just the case that all the people making cases for Fire, Houdini, Fat Fritz, etc, really are not the best or most capable people to be doing it?

In back to back paragraphs, he claims no one makes money from Open Source, and then states that Chessbase is smart for making money from Open Source. ??? If I ever find the strength to finish my stuff up I will be selling Ethereal, an open source engine, ...??? I don't think its dishonest arguing. I think its just arguing from a point of incomplete information.

[gaard]

Do I have a sort of confirmation bias with Alayan, since we are friends? Or is it just the case that all the people making cases for Fire, Houdini, Fat Fritz, etc, really are not the best or most capable people to be doing it?

In back to back paragraphs, he claims no one makes money from Open Source, and then states that Chessbase is smart for making money from Open Source. ??? If I ever find the strength to finish my stuff up I will be selling Ethereal, an open source engine, ...??? I don't think its dishonest arguing. I think its just arguing from a point of incomplete information.

I don't know about honest arguing, but regarding OSS, Fat Fritz is legal IMO, though not ethical in practice. Houdini was obviously a clone of RobboLito from the start, which was denied by the author, and therefor a blatant license violation. Fire? That guy's chess engines have always been suspect, and would never enter a tournament that I had formed.

[Dann Corbit]

Houdini was obviously a clone of RobboLito from the start, which was denied by the author, and therefor a blatant license violation.

Houdini could have started out as Ivanhoe, since Ivanhoe was public domain and Robbolito was a clone of Ivanhoe.

On the other hand, the evidence that current Houdini is based on SF seems rather overwhelming,

On the other, other hand, since Mr. Houdart seems to have had no qualms against cloning GPL SF, that does make it seem more likely that Robbolito was the original source.

I think, however, that the chess community is fast to point the finger, and often on flimsy evidence. Furthermore, the evidence used in the end is often obtained illegally. Hence, the chess community is every bit as much a collection of law violators as the cloners.

"Oh, but they broke the law for something bad and we broke it for something good!" we might say. But that is really a matter of opinion as to good and bad and we do not get to choose when to break the law if the law is just. Believe it or not, we do not have subpoena or writ or warrant power (nor executive orders). The ends do not justify the means, for either party.

And, quite frankly, I have stepped through commercial chess code to see what it is doing, so fingers point back at myself.

As my grandmother used to say, "When you point a finger at someone, there are usually three fingers pointing back at yourself"

[chrisw]

Houdini was obviously a clone of RobboLito from the start, which was denied by the author, and therefor a blatant license violation.

Houdini could have started out as Ivanhoe, since Ivanhoe was public domain and Robbolito was a clone of Ivanhoe.

On the other hand, the evidence that current Houdini is based on SF seems rather overwhelming,

On the other, other hand, since Mr. Houdart seems to have had no qualms against cloning GPL SF, that does make it seem more likely that Robbolito was the original source.

I think, however, that the chess community is fast to point the finger, and often on flimsy evidence. Furthermore, the evidence used in the end is often obtained illegally. Hence, the chess community is every bit as much a collection of law violators as the cloners.

"Oh, but they broke the law for something bad and we broke it for something good!" we might say. But that is really a matter of opinion as to good and bad and we do not get to choose when to break the law if the law is just. Believe it or not, we do not have subpoena or writ or warrant power (nor executive orders). The ends do not justify the means, for either party.

And, quite frankly, I have stepped through commercial chess code to see what it is doing, so fingers point back at myself.

As my grandmother used to say, "When you point a finger at someone, there are usually three fingers pointing back at yourself"

It’s almost standard that an accuser (especially a false one) is doing himself what he accuses the other of. Do you remember the A Silver accusation against my unseen, un-distributed, private engine, just a few weeks prior to Fat Fritz2 release?

[Dann Corbit]

It’s almost standard that an accuser (especially a false one) is doing himself what he accuses the other of. Do you remember the A Silver accusation against my unseen, un-distributed, private engine, just a few weeks prior to Fat Fritz2 release?

I do remember that there was some kind of problem and I was not able to understand it properly.

[ThomasMiller]

Houdini could have started out as Ivanhoe, since Ivanhoe was public domain and Robbolito was a clone of Ivanhoe.

First version of Houdini has 92.59% depth1 similarity with Ippolit and 96.60% with RobboLito; furthermore, considering that Robodini was developed by backporting all Houdini improvements to Robbolito could suggest that Robbolito was used but we'd need to see the source code to be 100% sure.

[Albert Silver]

Houdini was obviously a clone of RobboLito from the start, which was denied by the author, and therefor a blatant license violation.

Houdini could have started out as Ivanhoe, since Ivanhoe was public domain and Robbolito was a clone of Ivanhoe.

On the other hand, the evidence that current Houdini is based on SF seems rather overwhelming,

On the other, other hand, since Mr. Houdart seems to have had no qualms against cloning GPL SF, that does make it seem more likely that Robbolito was the original source.

I think, however, that the chess community is fast to point the finger, and often on flimsy evidence. Furthermore, the evidence used in the end is often obtained illegally. Hence, the chess community is every bit as much a collection of law violators as the cloners.

"Oh, but they broke the law for something bad and we broke it for something good!" we might say. But that is really a matter of opinion as to good and bad and we do not get to choose when to break the law if the law is just. Believe it or not, we do not have subpoena or writ or warrant power (nor executive orders). The ends do not justify the means, for either party.

And, quite frankly, I have stepped through commercial chess code to see what it is doing, so fingers point back at myself.

As my grandmother used to say, "When you point a finger at someone, there are usually three fingers pointing back at yourself"

It’s almost standard that an accuser (especially a false one) is doing himself what he accuses the other of. Do you remember the A Silver accusation against my unseen, un-distributed, private engine, just a few weeks prior to Fat Fritz2 release?

I never made any accusation. It was entirely in your head. It is a mindset issue though. Some people live and thrive on negativity and feel this is more representative of reality than not. I know many like this, even my late mother was prone to see the problems (imaginary or not) of any given situation over the possibilities. You really should try to be a more positive person. Peace.

[Krzysztof Grzelak]

Bold is my own. If I gave you two engine outputs with first move choice and evaluation by SF and FF2, I can almost guarantee you could not tell them apart. In similarity tests, the two engines are virtually indistinguishable. Hence, chess players are more often to find FF2 incredibly redundant, not useful.

And here you make a mistake like many others.

[Krzysztof Grzelak]

Earlier a mistake was already made. Stockfish should be a chess engine closed off.

[towforce]

As far as open source goes – if an individual’s effort is 80% or more of the project there is no way open source should even be considered as sensible – why throw away your work? And it is wasted – innovation should be rewarded.

One more reason: developers with an open source portfolio to point to are more likely to be offered contracts or jobs: its an indicator of genuine enthusiasm for creating software.