correspondence chess in the age of NNUE

[jefk]

lkaufman wrote:

If you want a very different chess, shogi is the best option in my opinion.

ok, had a quick look at shogi. Indeed a cool game because of
the handicap system, which resembles a bit my 'Fairchess' variant (*).
Otherwise it would be also a draw (**), ofcourse (at best play); look at the
(shogi) openings, best move for Black to start (chess notation) is c3-c4 (why
using other notation if we have chess notation) , releasing the bishop on b2.
The Japanese characters on the pieces are difficult to understand at first,
so imho Fairchess is the future; and it can be played on wooden ('3d')
boards as in the Tata steel tourn, whereas with Shogi, because of
all these promotion rules such pieces would be impractical (for the
rest shogi is an interesting agame, i admit..)

(*) where i asap will change the pawn-odds of the f2 pawn
removal into a c2 pawn removal.. (kudos LK).
https://www.chessvariants.com/rules/fair-chess
(**) continuing the opening tree in Shogi, if both sides play the best opening
moves, the Nnue eval when out of book is still around 'equal'. So there's no
winning method/strategy, and thus i consider the game as solved, ie it's a draw.

For the rest Shogi looks almost as cool as the renewed 'Fair-chess' will be (with the empty c2 square) coz neither Black nor White as a significant advantage (without handicaps).

[Master Om]

Check this position.

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

This is from my own game. This came out from a KID opening.
Just Check the eval here. Here my opponent who is an OTB GM played 33.Qb1
This is a corr game and u can see how helpless engines are here.

Now after deep analysis I found 33...Nxg2! can be played and then Bxh3!
But check the eval and the moves suggested...

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

33... Nxg2 34. Kxg2 Bxh3+ 35. Nxh3 g4 36. fxg4 hxg4 37. Bxg4 Nxg4 38. Kh1 Rfg7
39. Nxg4 Rxg4 40. Qd1 Qh7 41. Qe2 Bh4 42. Bxh4 Rxh4 43. Rff3 Qg6 44. Ra1 Qh6
45. Raa3 Qg6 46. Ra1 Rg7 47. Qf2 Qh7 48. Raa3 Kg8 49. Qe1 Kf7 50. Qf2 Rhg4 51.
Qe3 Ke7 52. Qe1 *

If Black gives up 2 rooks for the queen Nxf4!! after doubling of rooks in f file makes the game draw.
But engines dont get it.

Now after 33...Nfg7 34.Nfg4!! hxg4 35. fxg4 the position is interesting.
See how no engines show a valid way to play this position.
After Bxh4 and Bf3 there is no way for black to penetrate white's camp.

[jefk]

But engines dont get it.

which engines ?
The current Nnue engines (or maybe Lco or Komodo/Dragon with Mcts)
are better than the 'old-fashioned' SF, i suppose you know that.

But even then, correspondence chess isn't dead (yet), i (also)
suppose; although the frequency of draws will continue
to increase, especially at top level with current rules..

PS as for the c2 pawn (which i suggested to remove in
a variant to compensate the first move advantage for White,
upon further inspection it looks that removing the a2
pawn is the better option; but even then Black may
gain a slight advantage, so i don't guess such an option (*)
has a realistic chance of being adopted in corresp chess
(besides suggested the stalemate, and KP 3/4 rules); so
we may think of applying a slight time correction for White,
eg. one day less on average, in correspondence chess.

(*) for Otb chess, a handicap system as i propose(d) eg.
with the 'Fair-chess' variant, imho is a good idea to make
chess more attractive for weaker players; compare it
eg. with the Shogi handicap system. Sure, it should be worked
out a bit more in detail for practicality (i also may develop
a winboard option (**) instead of the rather weak Zillions engine).
After which i might contruct an open letter to the Fide
to consider such an extra variant (eg. for more 'social' chess)
(the variant name social chess already was occupied for
a smartphone chess (interpersonal) app, which is why i
went for 'Fair'chess.
(**) similar maybe for Crazyhouse first because there's an even
larger first move advantage for Black it seems, and second
because such a handicap system combined with the Crazyhouse
rules may be even more fun (than the regular already awesome
Crazyhouse (or Chessgi) variant(s)

[Ajedrecista]

Hello:

Check this position.

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

This is from my own game. This came out from a KID opening.
Just Check the eval here. Here my opponent who is an OTB GM played 33.Qb1
This is a corr game and u can see how helpless engines are here.

Now after deep analysis I found 33...Nxg2! can be played and then Bxh3!
But check the eval and the moves suggested...

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

33... Nxg2 34. Kxg2 Bxh3+ 35. Nxh3 g4 36. fxg4 hxg4 37. Bxg4 Nxg4 38. Kh1 Rfg7
39. Nxg4 Rxg4 40. Qd1 Qh7 41. Qe2 Bh4 42. Bxh4 Rxh4 43. Rff3 Qg6 44. Ra1 Qh6
45. Raa3 Qg6 46. Ra1 Rg7 47. Qf2 Qh7 48. Raa3 Kg8 49. Qe1 Kf7 50. Qf2 Rhg4 51.
Qe3 Ke7 52. Qe1 *

If Black gives up 2 rooks for the queen Nxf4!! after doubling of rooks in f file makes the game draw.
But engines dont get it.

Now after 33...Nfg7 34.Nfg4!! hxg4 35. fxg4 the position is interesting.
See how no engines show a valid way to play this position.
After Bxh4 and Bf3 there is no way for black to penetrate white's camp.

I quickly checked the position with SF 12 and Multi-PV = 7 and enabling/disabling NNUE makes a difference. There are lots of moves with eval < -2 with NNUE enabled, but none of the top-7 is 33.- ..., Nxg2; while SF without NNUE finds 33.- ..., Nxg2 (even 33.- ..., Nxf3+) in few seconds with eval < -1 as the best move. It is also true that, when 33.- ..., Nxg2 is played, SF 12 with NNUE returns eval < -1 in few seconds, following the same plan that SF 12 without NNUE and your plan: 34.- Kxg2, Bxh3. It is amazing that there have not been any captures after 65 plies!

King's Indian Defence examples strike again and again:

The King's Indian Defence again.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

[Master Om]

But engines dont get it.

which engines ?
The current Nnue engines (or maybe Lco or Komodo/Dragon with Mcts)
are better than the 'old-fashioned' SF, i suppose you know that.

All the latest NNUE engines. Komodo Gragon gets Nxg2!! pretty fast but misevaluates. SF NNUE got stuck at Rh7. Crystal also finds Nxg2!!.
All I found was black diamond had a little stable eval.

[Master Om]

Hello:

Check this position.

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

This is from my own game. This came out from a KID opening.
Just Check the eval here. Here my opponent who is an OTB GM played 33.Qb1
This is a corr game and u can see how helpless engines are here.

Now after deep analysis I found 33...Nxg2! can be played and then Bxh3!
But check the eval and the moves suggested...

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

33... Nxg2 34. Kxg2 Bxh3+ 35. Nxh3 g4 36. fxg4 hxg4 37. Bxg4 Nxg4 38. Kh1 Rfg7
39. Nxg4 Rxg4 40. Qd1 Qh7 41. Qe2 Bh4 42. Bxh4 Rxh4 43. Rff3 Qg6 44. Ra1 Qh6
45. Raa3 Qg6 46. Ra1 Rg7 47. Qf2 Qh7 48. Raa3 Kg8 49. Qe1 Kf7 50. Qf2 Rhg4 51.
Qe3 Ke7 52. Qe1 *

If Black gives up 2 rooks for the queen Nxf4!! after doubling of rooks in f file makes the game draw.
But engines dont get it.

Now after 33...Nfg7 34.Nfg4!! hxg4 35. fxg4 the position is interesting.
See how no engines show a valid way to play this position.
After Bxh4 and Bf3 there is no way for black to penetrate white's camp.

I quickly checked the position with SF 12 and Multi-PV = 7 and enabling/disabling NNUE makes a difference. There are lots of moves with eval < -2 with NNUE enabled, but none of the top-7 is 33.- ..., Nxg2; while SF without NNUE finds 33.- ..., Nxg2 (even 33.- ..., Nxf3+) in few seconds with eval < -1 as the best move. It is also true that, when 33.- ..., Nxg2 is played, SF 12 with NNUE returns eval < -1 in few seconds, following the same plan that SF 12 without NNUE and your plan: 34.- Kxg2, Bxh3. It is amazing that there have not been any captures after 65 plies!

King's Indian Defence examples strike again and again:

The King's Indian Defence again.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

Exactly. Its from classical KID which I regularly play from black side.

[perejaslav]

Check this position.

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

This is from my own game. This came out from a KID opening.
Just Check the eval here. Here my opponent who is an OTB GM played 33.Qb1
This is a corr game and u can see how helpless engines are here.

Now after deep analysis I found 33...Nxg2! can be played and then Bxh3!
But check the eval and the moves suggested...

Interesting position

[Master Om]

Check this position.

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

This is from my own game. This came out from a KID opening.
Just Check the eval here. Here my opponent who is an OTB GM played 33.Qb1
This is a corr game and u can see how helpless engines are here.

Now after deep analysis I found 33...Nxg2! can be played and then Bxh3!
But check the eval and the moves suggested...

Interesting position

believe me. there is no win in sight.

[mbabigian]

Check this position.

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

This is from my own game. This came out from a KID opening.
Just Check the eval here. Here my opponent who is an OTB GM played 33.Qb1
This is a corr game and u can see how helpless engines are here.

Now after deep analysis I found 33...Nxg2! can be played and then Bxh3!
But check the eval and the moves suggested...

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

33... Nxg2 34. Kxg2 Bxh3+ 35. Nxh3 g4 36. fxg4 hxg4 37. Bxg4 Nxg4 38. Kh1 Rfg7
39. Nxg4 Rxg4 40. Qd1 Qh7 41. Qe2 Bh4 42. Bxh4 Rxh4 43. Rff3 Qg6 44. Ra1 Qh6
45. Raa3 Qg6 46. Ra1 Rg7 47. Qf2 Qh7 48. Raa3 Kg8 49. Qe1 Kf7 50. Qf2 Rhg4 51.
Qe3 Ke7 52. Qe1 *

If Black gives up 2 rooks for the queen Nxf4!! after doubling of rooks in f file makes the game draw.
But engines dont get it.

Now after 33...Nfg7 34.Nfg4!! hxg4 35. fxg4 the position is interesting.
See how no engines show a valid way to play this position.
After Bxh4 and Bf3 there is no way for black to penetrate white's camp.

I don't find engine play improper here, only that the score of the position does not reflect the draw. What was improper, was steering into this position thinking it was winning. After examining this position, I see no plan to win. Checking with multiple engines will give multiple plans which are all perfectly fine to secure the draw. Engines cannot make wine from water. No engine finds a win for black because there is no win. Yes, as a correspondence player having a bogus eval is bad and leads you down the wrong path, but checking the PVs of all the suggested lines shows no progress from any engine. The super high score reflects positional advantages that appear to exist without the horizon to prove that they do not. Current engines do know how to play this position and do so well. They play it to a draw as it is a drawn position. They show an improperly large score because the 50 move rule and the repetitions are so far into the horizon it is incalculable. In the future new software might recognize this position as drawn, but in the here and now, current engines play this position flawlessly.

[Milos]

Check this position.

[d]6rk/pp1bbr2/3p1n1q/PPpPp1pp/2P1Pp1n/R4P1P/4BNPN/1Q2BRK1 b - - 0 33

This is from my own game. This came out from a KID opening.
Just Check the eval here. Here my opponent who is an OTB GM played 33.Qb1
This is a corr game and u can see how helpless engines are here.

Now after deep analysis I found 33...Nxg2! can be played and then Bxh3!
But check the eval and the moves suggested...

Interesting position

believe me. there is no win in sight.

This best move is only 33cp from the first 20+ moves that are all shuffling moves. Position is clearly blocked, so it is pretty basic to explore all moves that change that, and Nxg2 is the first and most promising on the list. This is nothing strange or new. Just basic stuff.