ShashChess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

connor_mcmonigle
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:40 am
Full name: Connor McMonigle

Re: ShashChess

Post by connor_mcmonigle »

amchess wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:37 pm No since it is an LTC test.
If I were to run 1000 games at long times (at least half an hour each), maybe on completely random opening positions, it would be the equivalent of at least 41 days!
There are so many patches to test and the development of a chess engine would be impossible.
Since the purpose of Shashchess is to be the best at long times, the criterion that is used, even in other branches of software engineering (testing strategy), is to use particularly significant samples. This concept is also used in statistics when we talk about "projections", for example, in the case of electoral surveys.
In our case, the chess concept of characteristic fits perfectly with this purpose: 20 games are played in one day and are based on the 10 characteristics (to simplify, center types), most common in chess. Since, if several positions share the same feature, they also share game plans, in this way, we can cover the range of possible situations without wasting too much time unnecessarily. We have explained this in the wiki.
A 20000 STC game test will give a better idea of LTC performance as compared to a 20 LTC game test. With only 20 games, the CI is massive and any result, barring an extreme result, is meaningless. Electoral surveys consist of 100s-1000s of participants, not 10s. The high variance of the sampling distribution for small N is inescapable.

Anyone with an iota of understanding of statistics will tell you the same thing.
amchess
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm

Re: ShashChess

Post by amchess »

No, because of, for example, the hard pruning for which many patches that are good at long times fail at short times.
This, by the way, is one of the reasons why Shashchess solves many more hard positions than Stockfish.
The participants in the elections are not chosen as carefully as, thank God, we have the possibility through the characteristics concept.
20000 STC matches then are forcibly random and they too can provide misleading results even at short times.
This is demonstrated by the not infrequent Stockfish regressions, only apparently inexplicable.
Ultimately, I think that if chess knowledge is combined with computer skills, you can get significant benefits, especially for testing activities.
Clearly, this is only my conviction, deriving, however, from 20 years of experience as a computer engineer.
Cornfed
Posts: 511
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:40 pm
Full name: Brian D. Smith

Re: ShashChess

Post by Cornfed »

Graham Banks wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:28 am
Cornfed wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:31 am
Cornfed wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:58 am I've noticed on the two most recent SFisGOD nets (in Stockfish) something odd.

I compare each with Stockfish Development version from 8/05 version in analysis (don't care about game play) for 'best moves' and more often than not, the SFisGOD nets are far slower to find and settle on a 'best' move which 8/05 has decided on earlier at less ply.
EDIT - which reminds me - does anyone know of a board/forum where people discuss (only) Stockfish Development versions?
Discord?
Yes, thanks...slipped my mind!
amchess
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm

Re: ShashChess

Post by amchess »

Cornfed
Posts: 511
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:40 pm
Full name: Brian D. Smith

Re: ShashChess

Post by Cornfed »

Kind of does not look possible on the face of it...what's the secret? :shock:
peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: ShashChess

Post by peter »

Thanks for the updates, just to say it, ShashChess 18 and 18.1- compiles are in Windows- download yet too again regards
Peter.
amchess
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Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm

Re: ShashChess

Post by amchess »

Paloma
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:07 pm
Full name: Herbert L

Re: ShashChess

Post by Paloma »

Code: Select all

Stockfish 130921	ShashChess18.2-x86-64-bmi2
Bc7+ (77)              Bc7+ (100)
b4 (93)	                b4 (93)
Qf2 (0)	                Qf2 (0)
What means the numbers in brackets?

Seconds can't be it, at 1 min per position.
Cornfed
Posts: 511
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:40 pm
Full name: Brian D. Smith

Re: ShashChess

Post by Cornfed »

Seriously, I don't believe these results - test results or the...think it was 15 games with a lopsided result towards ShashChess played between the two.
There must be something I am missing... (?)
amchess
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm

Re: ShashChess

Post by amchess »

Paloma wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:42 pm

Code: Select all

Stockfish 130921	ShashChess18.2-x86-64-bmi2
Bc7+ (77)              Bc7+ (100)
b4 (93)	                b4 (93)
Qf2 (0)	                Qf2 (0)
What means the numbers in brackets?

Seconds can't be it, at 1 min per position.
I suppose it is a conventional score given by the program to the solution skill on this particular position, but clearly the essential is if the engine found or not the solution.