nuff wrote:I don't consider the game a masterpiece and I did not run it in an engine. I was actually pleased that contrary to reports, there is little or no cheating on ICC. If you think the FM missing that is a big deal what about Kramnik vs Fritz missing a mate in one? Or Topalov's blunder in the playoff's? Do you have any comments WRT the ending?
Kramnik didn't actually miss a mate in one, he forgot about it...
This can happen after long calculations, it's rare mind you, but it does happen even though the player sees it.
I'm betting the FM did realize the sac, but somehow got sidetracked.
When you get a K-Side attack like White had, it's not natural not to consider sacrifices.
Had you seen it, you would have taken with Bishop rather than Rook, and I suspect, that the Rook on the F-File deferred the FM's attention.
finger Vendetta
Information about Vendetta(FM) (Last disconnected Wed Apr 25 2007 12:08):
rating [need] win loss draw total best
Crazyhouse 1648 [6] 2 2 0 4
Bullet 2025 6685 4113 556 11354 2178 (23-Dec-2006)
Blitz 2370 2495 2340 602 5437 2680 (09-Feb-2007)
Standard 2251 1388 368 245 2001 2415 (31-Mar-2005)
5-minute 2071 884 791 260 1935 2210 (04-Dec-2005)
1-minute 2007 [8] 2275 2131 202 4608 2029 (10-Feb-2006)
Groups : FMs
As you can see he is an FM on the ICC server. Even GMs miss things in 2 hour games much less 15 or 30 minute rapid games. Run an engine alongside a human GM's games in rapid chess and you will see.
They do but usually not something so simple and not very often.
Most experts/masters and upwards would have considered 18. Rxh7! very quickly, in fact even strong club playes would most likely spot the shot, it's a very common theme.
It seems your friend was having an off day or he/she, was just careless as they underestimated you. Whatever the reason, I'd never have shown this game, when clearly lost on move ..17.
I do not agree about your opinion that it is something so simple.
Of course if humans know that there is something to find they may find it but in game conditions when humans do not know that there is something to find they can simply not consider some good sacrifice espacially in rapid games(15 minute for all game).
I find the mistakes of kramnik against Fritz clearly worse because Fritz even did not need to sacrifice in order to mate in 1 or win a piece and the mistakes were one ply mistakes.
Uri
I've seen such sacrifices and made them in far shorter Time Controls, yes it's odd he missed it, maybe he was overly concerned with the F-File?
Terry McCracken wrote:
How could an FM miss that in a game 15 I wonder?
Anybody can suffer "chess blindness", even the very best players.
Possible, but it would seem dubious, I've seen and played combinations of that complexity often at G/5 and and even G/2!
You must be very strong to be able to play Rxh7 here in only a few seconds. It took me like 30 seconds or so to show myself that Rxh7 wins espically the Rxf7+ Qxg6 or Qh4 part after RxB or any tactics dealing with Be1. This is atleast a 7-ply tactic ... not so trivial to me at a 2 min game.
Well if you can see it in 30 seconds, then you have enough time in a G/15.
Intuition should lead you to examine Rxh7, in fact you should be considering it a few moves in advance.
shiv wrote:Rh7! is actually quite hard to calculate. The main lines could be Kh7 Bg6+! (Rg6 Rf7+ Kh6 Qh3+ Kg5 e4#) Kg8 Be8+ (winning the queen). There are other lines that could distract white (like the immediate Rf1+). It really depends on how much time white had. I imagine that the combination takes a good few minutes to calculate at the very least and can easily elude strong players.
GMs have missed much simpler combinations (I am not including blunders) in longer time controls than G/15.
It's not that hard, my bias may be that I'm a very tactical player, and look for tactics constantly.
Wow ... white plays exactly my opening that I use when I play computers. I first picked up this opening while analyzing GM Roman many wins against Crafty many years ago. It is the first time that I see someone else playing this. IMHO white strays when he plays 15. fxe5 ... taking with the d-pawn usually is much stronger. This quiet opening has tremendous tactical sacrificial combinations and black has to be very careful. I have beaten every engine up till Shredder 9 with this opening. This opening is also quite solid because usually black over-reacts and goes for a queenside attack ... this usually is too slow and white crashes with a sacrificial attack on the Kingside. Black's NxN was also not good since the Knight is very strong and is usually vital for defense.
This is an excellent opening to use against much stronger players ... even GM's handle this opening incorrectly with black. Most likely white was worried that black was using computer assistance and thus chose this opening. This was obviously not the case and black's endgame play was on par with white and thus was able to hold draw.
I have now partially understood what makes the combination somewhat harder than it seems.
Rh7 is not hard to see. Likewise, Rf1+ as a reply can be eliminated after Kf1 Rf8+ Kg1 (this might still require at least a few seconds).
However, the followup of Bg6+ after Kh7 is harder to see. The "default" line is Rf6 Bf6 Qg6+ Kh8 and black might be ok. People will probably waste some time in this line.
Still there is some calculation left in the Bg6+ line starting with Rg6, Kh6, Kh8, and Kg7(g8). The move Bf7+ winning material in the Kg7,g8 lines is also a little tricky given that white is not seeking make anymore.
All in all, Rh7 is easy to see but the followup lines will take some time to calculate.
shiv wrote:I have now partially understood what makes the combination somewhat harder than it seems.
Rh7 is not hard to see. Likewise, Rf1+ as a reply can be eliminated after Kf1 Rf8+ Kg1 (this might still require at least a few seconds).
However, the followup of Bg6+ after Kh7 is harder to see. The "default" line is Rf6 Bf6 Qg6+ Kh8 and black might be ok. People will probably waste some time in this line.
Still there is some calculation left in the Bg6+ line starting with Rg6, Kh6, Kh8, and Kg7(g8). The move Bf7+ winning material in the Kg7,g8 lines is also a little tricky given that white is not seeking make anymore.
All in all, Rh7 is easy to see but the followup lines will take some time to calculate.
I agree it takes some time to calculate everything, but I do believe it shouldn't be too hard for someone that is tactically minded to find the main lines in a G/15, imo.
M ANSARI wrote:Wow ... white plays exactly my opening that I use when I play computers. I first picked up this opening while analyzing GM Roman many wins against Crafty many years ago. It is the first time that I see someone else playing this. IMHO white strays when he plays 15. fxe5 ... taking with the d-pawn usually is much stronger. This quiet opening has tremendous tactical sacrificial combinations and black has to be very careful. I have beaten every engine up till Shredder 9 with this opening. This opening is also quite solid because usually black over-reacts and goes for a queenside attack ... this usually is too slow and white crashes with a sacrificial attack on the Kingside. Black's NxN was also not good since the Knight is very strong and is usually vital for defense.
This is an excellent opening to use against much stronger players ... even GM's handle this opening incorrectly with black. Most likely white was worried that black was using computer assistance and thus chose this opening. This was obviously not the case and black's endgame play was on par with white and thus was able to hold draw.
Yes, it's a very good opening for White and many underestimate the strength White has, and I myself don't like the Black side of this particular opening, especially if pressed for time.
After the FM failed to capitalize on his combinative win with 18. Rhf3?? Black played fairly well, and will give him credit in doing so.
shiv wrote:I have now partially understood what makes the combination somewhat harder than it seems.
Rh7 is not hard to see. Likewise, Rf1+ as a reply can be eliminated after Kf1 Rf8+ Kg1 (this might still require at least a few seconds).
However, the followup of Bg6+ after Kh7 is harder to see. The "default" line is Rf6 Bf6 Qg6+ Kh8 and black might be ok. People will probably waste some time in this line.
Still there is some calculation left in the Bg6+ line starting with Rg6, Kh6, Kh8, and Kg7(g8). The move Bf7+ winning material in the Kg7,g8 lines is also a little tricky given that white is not seeking make anymore.
All in all, Rh7 is easy to see but the followup lines will take some time to calculate.
I disagree with the black might be ok in the default line.
If you see the default line of Rxf6 Bxf6 Qg6+ and Qxf6+ then this is enough to convince you to play it.
It is my understanding that you have the advantage when you have bishop and 2 pawns for a rook and also have pair of bishops.
shiv wrote:I have now partially understood what makes the combination somewhat harder than it seems.
Rh7 is not hard to see. Likewise, Rf1+ as a reply can be eliminated after Kf1 Rf8+ Kg1 (this might still require at least a few seconds).
However, the followup of Bg6+ after Kh7 is harder to see. The "default" line is Rf6 Bf6 Qg6+ Kh8 and black might be ok. People will probably waste some time in this line.
Still there is some calculation left in the Bg6+ line starting with Rg6, Kh6, Kh8, and Kg7(g8). The move Bf7+ winning material in the Kg7,g8 lines is also a little tricky given that white is not seeking make anymore.
All in all, Rh7 is easy to see but the followup lines will take some time to calculate.
I disagree with the black might be ok in the default line.
If you see the default line of Rxf6 Bxf6 Qg6+ and Qxf6+ then this is enough to convince you to play it.
It is my understanding that you have the advantage when you have bishop and 2 pawns for a rook and also have pair of bishops.
Uri
Good point. black's king is really exposed too. So, white has a big advantage in the "default" line. Nonetheless, the advantage is not a huge material gain when compared to the other line. However, this should be enough to convince one to try out the line.
