Is Grob (1.g4) actually winning?

[Jouni]

I played 100 games match between SF versions with 80 + 0.8 time control. There were 18 draws, but surprisingly 3 white wins! Example:

[pgn]
[Event "My Tournament"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2025.10.21"]
[Round "14"]
[White "SFdev"]
[Black "stockfish17.1"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[EventDate "2025.??.??"]
[TimeControl "80"]

1. g4 {book} d5 {1.26/23 2.9s} 2. c4 {-1.43/24 9.0s} d4 {1.34/24 5.7s} 3. Bg2 {
-1.33/19 0.79s} c6 {1.43/24 3.7s} 4. h3 {-1.41/25 8.1s} h5 {1.43/20 0.85s} 5.
g5 {-1.26/15 0.91s} e5 {1.36/23 1.2s} 6. d3 {-1.30/21 1.8s} Ne7 {1.36/21 1.2s}
7. Nd2 {-1.32/21 1.2s} Ng6 {1.41/20 1.3s} 8. Ne4 {-1.27/20 1.2s} Na6 {1.38/22
2.0s} 9. h4 {-1.30/19 1.8s} Bg4 {1.38/24 2.4s} 10. Qc2 {-1.26/19 1.8s} Be7 {1.
44/24 2.0s} 11. Bd2 {-1.31/23 4.9s} Nb4 {1.39/20 1.8s} 12. Qb3 {-1.32/23 3.0s}
a5 {1.44/23 1.8s} 13. Bf3 {-1.40/20 2.3s} a4 {1.31/25 4.9s} 14. Qd1 {-1.38/21
1.4s} Na6 {1.30/23 1.9s} 15. Qxa4 {-1.34/20 1.6s} f5 {1.29/24 1.4s} 16. gxf6 {
-1.38/20 1.9s} gxf6 {1.32/24 1.2s} 17. Qc2 {-1.47/22 4.8s} f5 {1.32/24 1.5s}
18. Ng3 {-1.43/19 1.3s} Qd7 {1.37/24 2.2s} 19. O-O-O {-1.37/22 2.9s} Nxh4 {1.
45/22 1.5s} 20. Kb1 {-1.44/22 4.6s} O-O-O {1.47/20 1.2s} 21. a3 {-1.43/21 1.5s}
Rdf8 {1.49/26 5.5s} 22. Ka2 {-1.46/24 14} Bd8 {1.41/24 3.2s} 23. Nf1 {-1.40/23
11} Rfg8 {1.38/25 13} 24. b4 {-1.44/18 1.7s} Nc7 {1.39/19 1.4s} 25. Bc1 {-1.36/
18 2.4s} Ng6 {1.22/27 15} 26. Nd2 {-1.29/17 1.2s} Ne6 {1.22/22 3.0s} 27. Nh3 {
-1.38/20 5.4s} Kb8 {1.29/21 6.1s} 28. a4 {-1.24/16 0.88s} Bf6 {1.26/22 7.3s}
29. Qb3 {-1.23/20 4.3s} Nh4 {1.33/15 0.68s} 30. Ng1 {-1.32/22 3.7s} Bxf3 {1.34/
18 1.1s} 31. exf3 {-1.23/15 0.36s} c5 {1.08/22 4.5s} 32. b5 {-0.81/16 0.85s} b6
{0.72/18 1.5s} 33. Nh3 {-0.90/17 1.6s} Ng2 {0.72/15 0.42s} 34. Qa3 {-0.66/15 0.
28s} Ne3 {0.50/18 1.2s} 35. fxe3 {-0.44/15 0.60s} dxe3 {0.40/14 0.23s} 36. Nb3
{-0.15/16 0.50s} Rg2+ {0.24/14 1.1s} 37. Kb1 {-0.04/13 0.42s} e2 {0.00/19 1.1s}
38. Rd2 {0.00/18 0.37s} Rhg8 {0.00/18 0.22s} 39. a5 {0.17/17 0.95s} Rg1 {0.00/
20 0.22s} 40. Rxg1 {0.33/17 0.98s} Rxg1 {0.00/19 0.20s} 41. axb6 {0.15/18 3.5s}
e1=Q {0.00/18 0.73s} 42. Nxg1 {0.12/12 0.27s} Bg5 {0.00/21 0.61s} 43. f4 {1.05/
11 0.30s} Bxf4 {0.00/21 0.59s} 44. Rg2 {1.28/13 0.48s} Bg3 {0.00/16 0.74s} 45.
Nf3 {1.68/12 0.45s} Qxd3+ {-2.08/17 2.8s} 46. Ka2 {1.94/13 0.55s} Qxf3 {-2.54/
14 0.64s} 47. Qa7+ {2.08/13 0.55s} Kc8 {-2.70/15 0.64s} 48. Rd2 {2.36/14 0.70s}
Qb7 {-2.71/13 0.50s} 49. Na5 {2.33/17 0.47s} Qxa7 {-2.61/14 0.32s} 50. bxa7 {
2.35/14 0.48s} Qe4 {-2.59/14 0.93s} 51. b6 {2.67/16 0.43s} Be1 {-2.66/13 1.1s}
52. b7+ {2.79/14 0.51s} Qxb7 {-2.56/14 0.30s} 53. Nxb7 {3.15/15 0.58s} Kxb7 {
-3.06/17 0.68s} 54. Rd7+ {3.24/15 0.84s} Ka8 {-3.17/19 0.82s} 55. Re7 {3.29/16
0.63s} Nd4 {-3.33/20 2.2s} 56. Ba3 {3.60/16 0.54s} Bb4 {-3.55/19 0.70s} 57.
Bxb4 {3.91/15 0.92s} cxb4 {-3.77/18 0.23s} 58. Rxe5 {4.34/17 0.52s} h4 {-4.27/
17 1.5s} 59. Rd5 {4.49/16 1.8s} Nf3 {-4.44/19 1.0s} 60. Kb3 {4.58/17 0.49s} h3
{-4.41/14 0.27s} 61. Rd7 {4.81/15 1.3s} Ng5 {-4.86/20 1.3s} 62. Kxb4 {4.96/14
0.69s} h2 {-5.02/16 0.47s} 63. Rd8+ {5.04/15 1.8s} Kxa7 {-5.00/13 0.12s} 64.
Rh8 {4.84/15 0.40s} Nf3 {-4.89/14 0.27s} 65. Kb5 {4.78/15 0.44s} Nd4+ {-4.94/
19 1.4s, White wins by adjudication} 1-0

[/pgn]

The answer NO. This only shows, that 80 + 0.8 is too low time control for serious test!

[RubiChess]

I played 100 games match ... 80 + 0.8 is too low time control for serious test!

[Jouni]

My idea was to double time control from 10 + 0.1 and see if/when draw rate goes to zero. That time control has draw rate 50%. With 160 + 1.6 it was 8%. With 320 + 3,2 it was 0% after 50 games.

[Dann Corbit]

Here is a grob book:

The simple entries look like this:

Code: Select all

rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/6P1/8/PPPPPP1P/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - bm d5; acd 60; ce 169;
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/6P1/8/PPPPPPBP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - bm Bxg4; acd 60; ce 219;
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/6P1/8/PPPPPP1P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm e3; acd 60; ce -171;
rnbqkbnr/pppppp1p/8/6p1/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm Nc3; acd 59; ce 315;
rn1qkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/2P3b1/8/PP1PPPBP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - bm c6; acd 51; ce 184;
rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/3p2P1/8/8/PPPPPPBP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - bm h6; acd 51; ce 125;
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/6P1/7P/PPPPPP2/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - bm h5; acd 51; ce 175;
rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/3p4/6P1/8/PPPPPPBP/RNBQK1NR w KQkq - bm g5; acd 51; ce -108;
rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/3p4/6P1/7P/PPPPPPB1/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - bm e5; acd 51; ce 136;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/7P/8/PPPPPPP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm c4; acd 51; ce -35;

The decorated entries look like this:

Code: Select all

rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/6P1/8/PPPPPP1P/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 60; bm d5; cce 20; ce 169; c4 "Abajo, Hugo Ricardo; 1-0"; pm d5 {376} e5 {61} c5 {12} h5 {11} g6 {6} d6 {5} Nc6 {4} e6 {3} c6 {2} Nf6 {2} a6 {1} b6 {1} f5 {1} g5 {1}; pv d5 h3 h5 gxh5 e5 c3 Qh4 h6 Nxh6 Nf3 Qh5 d3 f6 e4 Be6 Be2 Qf7 Be3 Nc6 Nbd2 O-O-O Qa4 a6 O-O-O Qe8 Kb1 Nf7 h4 Kb8 Ka1 Nh6 Rhg1 dxe4 dxe4 Ng4 Nf1 Rxd1+ Qxd1 Nd8 Rh1 Nxe3 Nxe3 Bc5 h5 Bxe3 fxe3 Nf7 Nd2 Ng5 Bg4 Bf7; white_wins 110469; black_wins 122074; draws 26693; Opening A00n: Grob;
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/6P1/8/PPPPPPBP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - acd 60; bm Bxg4; cce 9; ce 219; c4 "Altrock, Rainer; 0-1"; pm c6 {101} Bxg4 {63} e5 {35} c5 {9} e6 {8} Nc6 {6}; pv Bxg4 c4 c6 Qb3 e6 Qxb7 Nd7 Nc3 Ne7 cxd5 exd5 d4 Rb8 Qa6 h6 h3 Be6 Nf3 Ng6 h4 Bd6 Qxc6 Rb6 Qa4 O-O Qxa7 Qc8 Qa4 Nf6 Qd1 Re8 Kf1 Nf4 Bxf4 Bxf4 Na4 Rc6 Nc5 Bg4 Nd3 Nh5 Qb3 Rc2 Re1 Bd2 Nxd2 Rxd2 Ne5 Bxe2+ Kg1 Rxd4 Qc3 Qxc3 bxc3 Rd2 Nf3 Rxa2 Nd4 Nf4 Kh2 Rd8 Kg3 Nh5+ Kh2 Bg4 Rhf1 Rd2 Rc1 Nf6 f3 Bd7 Rfd1 Rb2 Rb1 Rdb8 Rxb2 Rxb2 Kg1 Nh5 Bf1 Nf4 Ra1 Rd2 Ra8+ Kh7 Rd8 Be6 Nxe6 Nxe6 Rd6 Kg6 Bh3 Kf6 f4; white_wins 54485; black_wins 56900; draws 13133; Opening A00o: Grob Gambit;
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/6P1/8/PPPPPP1P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - acd 60; bm e3; cce -52; ce -171; c4 "Adams, John F; 0-1"; pm Bg2 {158} h3 {84} e3 {12} c4 {4} g5 {4} b3 {2} f4 {2} f3 {1}; pv e3 e5 Nc3 Be6 d4 Nc6 h3 h5 gxh5 Nf6 Bb5 e4 Bxc6+ bxc6 Bd2 Rxh5 Qe2 a5 O-O-O Bd6 Na4 g6 Rf1 Qe7 Qe1 Bg4 b3 Bf3 Nxf3 exf3 Qd1 Rf5 Rfg1 Ne4 Be1 c5 dxc5 Bxc5 Nxc5 Qxc5 Rg4 a4 b4 Qd6 Qd4 O-O-O a3 Re8 Qd3 Qf6 Kb1 Qc6 Kc1 Re6 h4 Qc4 Qxc4 dxc4 Rh2 c3 Rh1 Kb7 Rh3 Ree5 Rf4 Rxf4 exf4; white_wins 26933; black_wins 35277; draws 9742; Opening A00o: Grob: 1...d5;
rnbqkbnr/pppppp1p/8/6p1/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - acd 59; bm Nc3; cce 63; ce 315; c4 "Barkwell, Michael C; 0-1"; pm d4 {86} Nc3 {16} Nf3 {5} d3 {3} Ne2 {2}; pv Nc3 d6 d4 h6 h4 gxh4 Be3 c6 Qd2 Nf6 f3 e6 O-O-O b5 Kb1 a5 d5 b4 Na4 cxd5 Nb6 Nbd7 Nxa8 Bb7 Rxh4 dxe4 Nb6 Nxb6 Bb5+ Nbd7 fxe4 Rg8 Bxh6 Be7 e5 Nd5 Rh5 Qb6 Qd3 Bc6 Bxc6 Qxc6 exd6 Qxd6 Ne2 a4 Bc1 a3 g3 Bf6 Qe4 Be5 Bf4 N5f6; white_wins 35025; black_wins 25750; draws 5014; Opening B00b: Reversed Grob (Borg/Basman Defence);
rn1qkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/2P3b1/8/PP1PPPBP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - acd 51; bm c6; cce -21; ce 184; c4 "Ayza Leon, David; 1-0"; pm c6 {25} d4 {16} dxc4 {8} Nf6 {4} e5 {3} e6 {3} Bc8 {2} Bd7 {1}; pv c6 Qb3 e6 Qxb7 Nd7 Nc3 Ne7 cxd5 exd5 d4 Rb8 Qa6 h6 Nf3 Rb6 Qxa7 Ng6 Qa4 Bb4 a3 Bd6 Ne5 Bxe5 dxe5 Be6 O-O O-O Qd1 Nh4 f4 f6 e4 d4 Na4 Bb3 Qg4 Bxa4 Qxh4 fxe5 Qxd8 Rxd8 b4 c5 bxc5 Nxc5 Bd2 Nb3 Rad1 exf4 Bxf4 Rg6 Bc7 Rd7 Bg3 d3 Bh3 Rd8 Bf5 Rc6 e5 Nc5 Rd2 Bc2 Rxc2 dxc2 Bxc2 Ne6 Be4 Ra6 Ra1 Rd4 Bc2 Rd2 Be4 Ra5 a4; white_wins 18651; black_wins 16798; draws 3331; Opening A00o: Grob Gambit Accepted: Fritz Gambit;
rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/3p2P1/8/8/PPPPPPBP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - acd 51; bm h6; cce 9; ce 125; c4 "Antonov, Vitaly Aleksandrovich; 0-1"; pm e5 {16} Bf5 {4} h6 {3}; pv h6 d4 Bf5 h4 hxg5 hxg5 Rxh1 Bxh1 Qd6 Nf3 Nd7 Bg2 e6 Nbd2 Ne7 Nf1 Bg4 Ng3 Nf5 Nxf5 Bxf5 Bd2 Be4 Qc1 c5 c3 cxd4 cxd4 Nb6 Qd1 Be7 b3 Qd8 Kf1 Bxf3 Bxf3 Bxg5 e3 Nc8 Be2 Nd6 Bb4 Be7 Bd3 g6 Bxd6 Qxd6 Qg4 O-O-O Rc1+ Kb8; white_wins 15105; black_wins 15789; draws 4242; Opening A00o: Grob Gambit: Spike Attack;
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/6P1/7P/PPPPPP2/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 51; bm h5; cce 62; ce 175; c4 "Albanesi, Paul L; 0-1"; pm e5 {103} c6 {6} h5 {6} c5 {4} e6 {3} f5 {2} g6 {1} Nc6 {1}; pv h5 gxh5 e5 c3 Qh4 Nf3 Qxh5 d3 Nc6 Nbd2 Nge7 b4 a6 Rg1 f6 a4 Qf7 Ba3 Ng6 Qb3 b5 e4 dxe4 Qxf7+ Kxf7 axb5 exf3 bxc6 Bxh3 Nxf3 Bxf1 Kxf1 Rd8 d4 Bd6 Bb2 Rh3 Rg3 Rh5 Rg1 Re8 Bc1 e4 Ne1 Rh3 Be3 f5 d5 f4 Bd4 f3 Rxa6 Nf4 Rxg7+ Kf8 b5 Ne2; white_wins 11856; black_wins 16286; draws 3698;
rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/3p4/6P1/8/PPPPPPBP/RNBQK1NR w KQkq - acd 51; bm g5; cce -30; ce -108; c4 "Adams, John F; 0-1"; pm h3 {53} g5 {20} c4 {7} e3 {4} e4 {1}; pv g5 h6 d4 hxg5 Bxg5 Qb6 Nf3 Bf5 Qc1 Nf6 c4 Nbd7 O-O e6 Bh4 Be7 Bg3 Nh5 Rd1 g6 Nbd2 g5 cxd5 cxd5 Qc3 f6 e3 Bb4 Qb3 Nxg3 hxg3 O-O-O Rac1+ Kb8 a3 Bd6 Ne1 Bg6 Nd3 Bxd3 Qxd3 f5 Qb3 Qxb3 Nxb3 f4 Nc5 Nxc5 dxc5 Bc7 gxf4 gxf4; white_wins 12673; black_wins 14801; draws 4337; Opening A00o: Grob Gambit: 2...c6;
rnbqkbnr/pp2pppp/2p5/3p4/6P1/7P/PPPPPPB1/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - acd 51; bm e5; cce 52; ce 136; c4 "Andreassen, Einar; 0-1"; pm e5 {59} h5 {9} e6 {1} f5 {1} g5 {1} Nd7 {1} Nf6 {1}; pv e5 Nc3 Ne7 d3 Ng6 Nf3 h6 e4 d4 Ne2 c5 Ng3 Nc6 Bd2 a5 O-O Be7 Nh5 O-O Qc1 Re8 a4 Nb4 Kh1 Ra6 b3 Kh7 Ng3 Rh8 Rg1 Bf6 Bf1 Nh4 Nxh4 Bxh4 f4 exf4 Bxf4 Kg8 Nf5 Bg5 Qd2 Kf8 Qh2 Bxf4 Qxf4 Re6 Be2 g6 Nxh6 Rf6 Qd2 Rf2 Raf1; white_wins 11761; black_wins 15314; draws 3363;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/7P/8/PPPPPPP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - acd 51; bm c4; cce -10; ce -35; c4 "Chia, Chee Seng; 1-0"; pm h5 {7} c4 {4} e4 {4} d4 {2} g4 {2} Nc3 {2} a4 {1} g3 {1} Rh3 {1}; pv c4 Nf6 d3 d5 cxd5 Nxd5 Nf3 Nc6 g3 Bc5 Bg2 h6 Nc3 O-O Nxd5 Qxd5 a3 Bb6 O-O f5 e3 Rd8 Nd4 e4 dxe4 fxe4 Qc2 Nxd4 exd4 Bf5 Be3 Qe6 a4 Rd5 Qc3 Rad8 a5 Bxd4 Bxd4 Rxd4 Qxc7 e3 fxe3 Rd2 Rf2 Qxe3 Qf4 Qxf2+ Qxf2 Rxf2 Kxf2 Rd2+ Kg1 Rxb2 Rc1 Rb5 Rc7 Rxa5 Rxb7 Bd3; white_wins 12203; black_wins 12792; draws 2437;

There is not always a pv to explain the plan, because sometimes there was a hash cut-off.
The c4 field shows someone or some engine that played it in a game and the result (if available)
It was calculated 3 or 4 years ago, so modern engines could improve it.
At any rate, common openings and a few key games are contained in the book.
I guess that any engine can fare well at any sensible time control.

The Grob has some tricky things in it that fool engines at very fast time control.
It is like the old Dutch Stonewall used to be for computers, but they handle that a lot better today.
Another example where computers need some time is Indian openings where the bishops are in fianchetto to control the center